Economists say recovery looks stronger than expected

[babylonsister]

Economists say recovery looks stronger than expected

By Paul Davidson and Barbara Hansen, USA TODAY


The recovery is shaping up to be stronger than expected and there is little risk the economy will slip back into a recession, according to USA TODAY's quarterly survey of 46 leading economists.

Yet most still say the rebound will fall short of the sharp, V-shaped upturns that often follow severe slumps, and the 9.7% jobless rate will fall slowly.

As the Fed meets to assess the economy this week, seven in 10 economists say they're more optimistic than they were three months ago.

"I think we've gotten to a point where it's a self-sustaining recovery," says Standard & Poor's chief economist David Wyss.

The experts predict growth of 3% this year, up from forecasts of 2.8% in January. In V-shaped upswings, growth is often 7% or more.


more...

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2010-04-26-econsurvey26_ST_N.htm

[DCBob]

1. NYTimes has a similar article this morning..

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/26/business/economy/26econ.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1272290424-eyrXXYhVSLh8UDIy9Thpjw

However be prepared to be pounded for posting such an optimistic article. ;)

[babylonsister]

2. Nah, no pounding probably, just yawns. Good news doesn't often

get acknowledged. :hi:

[DCBob]

4. Yes, maybe they have finally given up hope on us "cheerleaders"..

:headbang:

[babylonsister]

6. Oops, seems I spoke too soon!

:spray:

[MadHound]

3. I'm so sick of this shit,

A jobless recovery is not, repeat NOT a recovery!

I also notice that these so called experts don't seem to take into account the looming wave of commercial real estate foreclosure that is soon to wash ashore later this summer.

This is simply more hot air, talking up the economy when the basics are still in the toilet.

[The Northerner]

5. +1

[Dream Girl]

8. So there, you Obama cheerleaders!

[Teaser]

13. we're all doomed!!! hitler is rising from the grave and will kill us all

.

[MadHound]

19. Let's see here, did you read the article?

Where it stated that unemployment will have only dropped .3% by the end of the year? Do you honestly think that is a true recovery? Try telling it to those of us who have no jobs.

Do you know what is going to happen later this summer? All those ARM's in the commercial real estate sector are going to reset, forcing commercial mortgages our of the reach of many small businesses. You will see a collapse much like we saw in residential real estate. Do you think that is hyperbole? Then go do you own research on it.

[DrToast]

22. The economic condtion of the US does not hinge on your employment status

The economy does not revolve around you.Sorry.

There are always unemployed people, even in the best of times.

[MadHound]

27. Well d'uh, but it does hinge on all of our employment status, which is now running over 17%

It all comes down to jobs, and when the net job creation this year is only going to be .3%, well I hesitate to say that our economy is recovering.

[BklnDem75]

40. 17%? Link please? nt

[MadHound]

43. Gave you a link to the BLS down below,

I'll leave you to navigate your way from there. You're looking for the U6 number.

[mkultra]

80. U6 is not unemployment, its underemployment

And the fact remains that the norm for a good economy is 5.6% U3. We are not far off the norm and much like we always must repeat to the non thinking class, jobs are a lagging indicator, not a preceding. There is no such thing as a truly jobless recovery as proven by the fact that we ALWAYS get back to around 5% U3. Not everyone who claims to be underemployed due to economic reasons truly is.

[TheKentuckian]

86. Double isn't far off? Maybe you'd like to be taken to the other side of the world

but only get a ride halfway back?

You will also ignore that the economy was garbage before this latest collapse and that the wealth differential, personal debt, wage stagnation, loss of benefits, and cost of health care are all horrendous when to you and yours things were great, I reckon?

Just by playing the game that all was well before the latest Bush crash out means you are disconnected from, arrogant about, and about completely disinterested in the situation of working class people.

Not far off from the norm?!? What the fuck is the norm and why is it acceptable for your countrymen?

The "non-thinking class" statement shows how truly devoid of both thought and soul you and your ilk are.

[mkultra]

89. Yes, when reason is applied.

We all know that there are people who want to work and cannot. But that doesnt change the fact that the depth of this recession is not as bad as we have seen and we will, as we always do, recover.

All wasn't necessarily "well" before the crash, thus the crash, but 5% is about the national average in boom time because of various reasons. Even when employment demand is at its highest and wages are driven up, there are still a percentage of Americans who do not work for various reasons.

The only disconnect here is to assume that just because jobs haven't recovered that we haven't started back up from the bottom.
Its far from correct to say our economy was garbage since we have one of the most robust economies in the world. You may wish is was more tightly controlled or more manufacturing based, but that doesn't change the fact that it was robust and will be again.

[Teaser]

30. I read every fucking article published.

Omniscience has its perks.

[MadHound]

33. Omniscience may have its perks,

But the ability to analyze and critique what you read is even better.

[66 dmhlt]

38. +1

[DrToast]

15. You're sick of this?! It's not a jobless recovery when we're creating jobs!

What's the matter with you?

[MadHound]

21. Let's see here,

When real unemployment (U6 numbers) is running at over seventeen percent, and the "experts" are predicting only a .3% drop in the unemployment rate by the end of this year, and a 1.2% drop by the end of next year, I would say it is, so far, a jobless recovery.

[DrToast]

23. Yes, but that's only because you have no idea what you're talking about

The term jobless recovery was coined after the 1990 recession and described an extended period of no job growth.

By defintion, that is not the case in this recovery.

So you are wrong. Please stop using that term incorrectly.

[MadHound]

26. So you think that knocking off .3% off the unemployment figure of over 17%

Isn't a jobless recovery? OK, excuse the fuck out me Mr. Technicality, ooo, we're going to add a few tens of thousands of net jobs (remember, we need to add 125,000 jobs/month just to break even) by the end of the year. In the face of 8 million+ unemployed, that is but a drop in the bucket.

[BklnDem75]

17. Why do you hate progress?

Jobless recovery rate? Really?

[MadHound]

24. Yeah, really

The real unemployment rate, U6 numbers, are running over seventeen percent unemployed. The "experts" are forecasting a drop in unemployment of .3%. I would say that is pretty much a jobless recovery.

I'm graduating from college with degrees in education and history. Since I'm a non-traditional student, I've got a house, home, roots here and cannot go to where the scarce jobs are. I'm looking at being unemployed because school districts within a radius of thirty miles simply aren't hiring due to the downturn, in fact they're laying off. Gee, spending all that time in school for what? To go back into the field I wanted to get out of:crazy: If I can go back. I live in the Midwest, one of the last places any sort of economic recovery ever comes.

[BklnDem75]

28. In 2009, the unemployment rate jumped from 7.4% to 10%,

and you're complaining about median estimates of 9.4% by year's end? You really need to get a grip. This is positive news and you're sick of hearing about it? Get over yourself.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BklnDem75]

35. You have zero facts, just pure emotion.

You hate positive news? Who cares. We're not going to stop because of you. You're certainly on the wrong site if your only goal is to downplay everything good. Regardless of your spin, 8 million unemployed is better than the 10+ million we were headed towards, but please, continue with your glass half empty attitude.

[MadHound]

42. Well, upon further checking, that 8 million number of mine was off, by a considerable amount

My bad, that's what I get for not looking up the figures.

It seems as though we've already passed the 10 million figure. The number is more like 32.9 million if you're counting those who are involuntary part timers. Those completely without work is running at 23.9 million. That's a huge number, especially with this years crop of college and high school grads coming on the scene.

<http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm>

Do I hate good news, no. What I do hate is having the administration and media falsely pumping up the good news in order to try and cover up the fact that while Wall St. and associated folks are doing better, the rest of us are still suffering. I also hate the fact that people are whistling by the graveyard, much as they were in early '07, trying to ignore the looming commercial real estate crash.

I don't hate good news, I simply prefer to deal in reality, and in reality this country is still in deep economic trouble with no light at the end of the tunnel.

[BklnDem75]

54. The number is officially 15 million

Adding part time workers is pure assumption on your part. Same with long term unemployment. These numbers have been around when the economy was better and they'll still be around long after Obama leaves office. You're simply clinging onto anything you consider to be bad news. Good luck with that.

[MadHound]

55. No, actually if you read the BLS page I linked to

You would see that the numbers of long term unemployed are going up, as is the number of part time workers, who were forced to take a cut in hours. Read carefully.

Yes, there has always been a percentage of the population that is long term unemployed and that have been on involuntary part time hours, but that number has gone up over the past couple of years, and still continues to rise. That is reality, deal with it.

[BklnDem75]

57. That tends to happen when a country is in a recession, genius.

Long term unemployment is 23 weeks and up. Did you really expect positive growth in that area or are you just being disingenius? Like I said, you can only make assumptions on long term unemployment and part time workers. There's a reason why the labor department won't add that number in their totals. You're simply using numbers you don't understand as a talking point.

[rhett o rick]

70. Yes buy into the new bubble. Fool. nm

[phleshdef]

36. 1st, the article never implied it would be jobless, 2nd, you don't GET to decide what recovery means

Economic recovery has a definition and it was not, is not nor will it ever be up to you what that definition is. You will just have to live with that.

[MadHound]

46. Economic recovery, as defined by GDP growth is a very inaccurate way of measuring

GDP is inaccurate because while it does measure things like the number of widgets made, it also includes things like recovering from the disasters that strike our country. For instance, GDP will actually probably go up in those area's hit by tornadoes over the weekend because all that recovery work, legal work, reconstruction work all gets tossed in the GDP pot. Yet there is still a town lying in shambles, and even when it has been rebuilt, it hasn't actually grown any, it has simply, hopefully returned to its previous state.

Furthermore, GDP is weighted to the side of paper growth, ie growth than comes from the financial sectors and such. These sectors don't supply an real growth, except for the money that flows into the pockets of the elite. But since the numbers are so huge, it far outweighs any growth, or lack thereof, in the real brick and mortar, manufacturing widgets sector.

I could go on and on, but my suggestion for you is to go down to your local library, check out some books on economics and educate yourself.

[phleshdef]

61. I don't need to be an economist to know that substained growth leads to job creation.

If you need a library to figure that out, then I can't help you. Besides, there are plenty of credible economists, ones whos opinions carry a lot more weight than yours, that I'm listening to and they are saying that things are looking a lot better.

[rhett o rick]

71. Yeah what did your genius "credible economists" say just before the collapse?

Go ahead and put your savings in the stock market. THE NEW BUBBLE IS HERE. GET IN WHILE IT'S HOT, STEP RIGHT UP.

[phleshdef]

72. The ones I listened to said we might be heading for collapse.

And in either case, they relied on actual knowledge of the situation to make an assessment, unlike yourself who seems to be interested in nothing but overemotional babbling.

[rhett o rick]

78. The collapse was orchestrated as is this new "recovery" (bubble).

It doesnt take a genius to see that the cause of the collapse hasnt been fixed. The government printed more money to keep the bubble going. They have done nothing to get jobs back from overseas or even stop the flow.

I wish you the best in your gambling on the stock market. Some win (the players) and millions lose.

[Phx_Dem]

45. Yeah me too, I wish we were still careening toward the abyss.

Shit. This good news really pisses me off.

:sarcasm:

[MadHound]

47. Never said I wanted us careening towards the abyss

In fact I think that I'm implying (and now stating) that I don't want us careening towards the abyss. What I'm sick of is this incessant drumbeat of supposedly "good news" in the economy, "good news" that is having no effect on what is going on in the real world, "good news" designed to make us forget that over thirty million people are either unemployed or underemployed, and apparently that number is not going to change much.

I don't want fake news, I don't want doom and gloom, I want reality, and this so-called "growth" simply isn't reality.

[Dawgs]

49. "no effect on what is going on in the real world"

I have benefited greatly from this recovery - $50,000+ monies in 401k, no longer fearing losing job for wife and myself, and overall I feel happier and more optimistic.

Do I not live in the real world?

[MadHound]

51. Nice for you,

Hell, my retirement fund actually broke back even from what it lost.

Yet there are over thirty million unemployed or underemployed out there, I'm one of them. I'm looking at having gone back to college, spent four years getting and education degree for what? To be told that there are no teaching jobs within thirty miles of where I live.

And I'm but one of over thirty million people, ten percent of our total population. That's reality. I'm glad you're doing well, I hope you keep your job. But I wouldn't put too much faith in that 401k, because the markets are simply being pumped up into another bubble again, looking to take in the suckers and then go *pop*.

But meanwhile, out here in the real world, for every success like yours, there are many other who are going under.

[KansasVoter]

56. So u know more about this looming real estate deal than them?

[Aramchek]

64. You really should learn a little about Economics before you start shouting about it

Jobs are always a lagging indicator of growth.

Just because jobs aren't back to where they were pre-recession doesn't mean that the Economy isn't recovering.

The jobs will return, wait and see.

[ShortnFiery]

67. +1

:thumbsup:

[Clio the Leo]

7. Are GDP figures not released quarterly?

.... am I dreaming that they're supposed to be? And if they are, anyone heard results for q1 '10? Or know when we will get them?

Anyway, I love how we went from "will the economy recover" to "economy stronger than expected." I think I BLINKED and missed "the economy is recovering!" ... and I was looking forward to that one. :)

[onenote]

10. the "advance" estimate of 1Q 2010 GDP is due out on Friday at 8:30 am

Here is the schedule:
http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/news_release_sort_national.htm

[Clio the Leo]

12. thank you ....

.... I knew it had to be sometime soon.

[DrToast]

16. Right now the consensus estimate for Q1 is 3.2%

http://www.briefing.com/Investor/Public/Calendars/EconomicCalendar.htm

[Deep13]

9. Slow improvement is still improvement.

Good news. In addtion for the practical reasons for wanting an improved economy, good news will help us in November.

[ShortnFiery]

63. Not where it comes to this PONZI SCHEME. The bottom will fall out again real soon.

I don't trust in what these so called EXPERTS have to sell. :puke:

[quaker bill]

76. The funny thing is

if the people believe the economy is recovering, it will actually recover. The psychology of markets is exactly like this. There is no particular policy formula required, just a belief that recovery is happening. The stronger the belief, the stronger and more rapid the recovery will be.

This may sound a little like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz, but is isn't. Economies are made of billions of purchasing decisions. The more confident folks feel, the more often they will purchase, the more often they purchase, the more clear evidence of recovery becomes, and confidence increases.

We have seen the perverse side of this do-loop with plummeting confidence and failing purchases, now we are about to see the constructive side of the same paradigm.

[paulk]

83. more jobs will help us this November

something this "recovery" is lacking in...

[Peacetrain]

11. Our manufacturing sector is starting to climb back in Iowa.. K&R

They had an article on it this weekend in our newspaper.. Our manufacturing jobs have climbed back over 200,000..


Peak employment looks to hit back in another 2 years.. it is a slow and steady recovery on black ink not red..


That is some good news for those who need long term employment

[Dappleganger]

20. This is good!

[HughMoran]

14. unrec - I hate good news!

:evilgrin:

I keeeed! I keeeed!

K&R

[Jennicut]

18. Slooooow recovery is coming. Very, very slow. But it is happening.

Now, we must address some longer term issues. Anyone want to debate what to do about Nafta, loss of manufacturing jobs, etc.?

[grahamhgreen]

25. Great. Time to TAX THE UBER-RICH and give benefits to the unemployed - they can afford it!

Unemployment is simply a fault of our system - not the unemployed workers.

[liberal N proud]

31. I find it amazing that even when there is good news there are those who complain

Proving that some will complain no matter what.

[MadHound]

32. Spoken like one who has a job and/or a comfy life

There are over 8 million people unemployed in this country, over 17 percent of the workforce. Try telling them that a .3% drop in the unemployment rate is something to cheer about.

[Yavin4]

37. There Are Always Going to be A Certain Percentage of Long Term Unemployed

Regardless of the pace of the recovery or the condition of the economy, we're going to see more and more long term unemployed for the simple reason that innovations in technology render many jobs obsolete.

In my field, managing and handling paper based data is giving away to managing electronic data, which requires fewer people. There are going to be less and less people in my field no matter who is elected to office or what policies get enacted.

Mfg jobs are also getting more and more tech and math oriented. To get a job in mfg is going to require life long education and constant re-training. Gone are the days when one skill set can keep you employed for life. You will have to learn and re-learn multiple skill sets throughout your life in order to stay employed.

The key data point is new jobs added to the economy. As long as that is positive and growing, then the rest is up to people to train for the new jobs that are being created instead of waiting around for obsolete jobs to return.

[phleshdef]

41. Understanding those details means critical thought. That takes away from bitch and moan time.

[MadHound]

48. Ah yes, train for new jobs, right

I've gone that route a couple of times in my life. This last time, I went back to college to get dual degrees in teaching and history. After all, four years ago they were begging for teachers. Yet now, here I am, graduating in two weeks and guess what. There are no jobs for teachers within thirty miles of where I live (and no, I've got too much invested in where I currently live to move).

So much for retraining.

I recognize that there will always be a certain segment of society that is unemployed, however the key is to minimizing that number, something that really doesn't seem to be on anybody's radar. The stimulus last year was a joke at best (forty percent of it was tax cuts, the least effective form of stimulus) and it hasn't been carried over into this year. While we're continuing to spend billions and billions are illegal, immoral wars for empire abroad, people here at home are going jobless for the lack of a stimulus to help perk this economy up even faster. Jobs, jobsjobsjobs, that is what is needed and we're simply not getting them. To claim that a .3% reduction in unemployment by the end of the year is something to celebrate is, in my opinion, bordering on the obscene.

[Yavin4]

65. Going Back to College Is Not The Best Method for Retraining

College curriculums, for the most part, are backwards looking. Their instruction center on their faculty's acumen, not what's currently in demand. My idea of re-training would be done by people in the field actually doing the work, not academics who only teach theory.


In your situation, you went back to get training to teach history, a field that's pretty glutted. Instead if you wanted to teach math and chemistry, then you'd probably would have made yourself more marketable.

[phleshdef]

39. I bet if it was a .3 rise, you would be bitching harder than anyone else is cheering.

[MadHound]

50. Love the misogynistic language there,

But language aside, a .3% drop in the unemployment rate is fine, but frankly it is a drop in the bucket. This last month we barely came out on the positive side of net job growth (remember, you have to create at least 125,000 jobs/month to break even). One month. Meanwhile there are over thirty million people out there, myself included, who are either unemployed or underemployed. We need JOBS!

A real stimulus package last year would have helped, but forty percent of that stimulus package was in the form of tax cuts, the least effective form of stimulating the economy. We need another stimulus package this year, but that apparently isn't going to happen. Meanwhile we're spending billions upon billions on two illegal, immoral wars of empire, flushing that money right down the drain.

My question is when are we going to truly start helping the people on Main St.? When are we going to start investing in some serious job creation in this country?

[BklnDem75]

60. A drop in the bucket compared to what?

You're completely ignoring the leap from 7.4 to 10% last year. From a 2.6% increase in unemployment one year to a .7% decrease the next year and that's a drop in the bucket... yeah ok. You call us cheerleaders for accepting realistic goals. What does that make you?

[phleshdef]

66. Its the year 2010. If you think that word is misogynist, you must believe gay still means happy.

A petty swipe like that isn't even clever, let alone does it have any merit.

Job creation is all ready starting to take place. The signs are everywhere that we are seeing the beginning of a jobs recovery. But you can't expect it to happen over night. No recession ever ends that way.

[liberal N proud]

52. If you want JOB's, cheer good news on the economy

Companies are not going to create jobs until the economy has improved
Therefore, unemployment lags behind in recovery.

It is the cruel fact of economics.


Stop stomping all over any good news just because it has not produced enough jobs for everyone.

[treestar]

82. I think most of them would cheer a bit

If you are unemployed, then what is bad about the rate dropping, however little?

I have always maintained the biggest cheerleaders would be the unemployed ; the NEED the good news. those who crap on it are probably retired or employed and don't have a stake in it.

[HughMoran]

34. Don't you know that there can be no good news until the unemployment rate hits 0%

...and every citizen is fat & happy? Celebrating good news otherwise is like spitting on a homeless person.

[liberal N proud]

53. WOW, every time good news on the economy is posted here...

the unrec committee stomps all over it.

[paulk]

84. how is this good news?

A "V" shaped recovery would have been good news - a "U" shaped one is not - and we're still looking at massive long term unemployment.

This "good" news is akin to learning that, instead of losing your whole leg, they're only going to have to take it off below the knee...

[TheKentuckian]

87. Then give up your job that you cried like a baby about possibly losing

during your wealth care/insurance profit propaganda campaign.

Its all aces for you but some folks need work and work that pays a living wage.

The economy for many has been crap for a long time as wages have stagnated and every job becomes temporary as they are continuously outsourced or lost in acquisitions which means folks have to start over on the pay scale along with benefits and pay high COBRA rates over and over until everything saved is depleted.

People are losing everything and you fuckers have the audacity to bitch about people bitching too much or never being satisfied?

Fuck, I'd love to have what you claim to be in line to pay for health care before the scam went through.

Motherfuckers pulling down 50, 75, 100, 200k when others are trying to make it on essentially nothing could at least shut the fuck up about when they hear grumbling from steerage. Some of us are fucking homeless and the rest are trying to stay one step ahead of it. For lots of folks patience is a virtue but a luxury that we don't have.

The pressures of this past decade have been and continue to be devastating but some people have the nerve to be upset because rich people are getting grumbled at and direct immediate action is demanded of the fucks we elected on our behalf just like they broke their damned necks to take care of the big wigs without even the sense to put conditions on the largesses of the American people to be returned to those most devastated by their shenanigans.

[Phx_Dem]

44. Gee, what do you know about that. Amazing how good news upsets

so many people, while they cheer any bad news.

Whaaaaaa. People are still unemployed so this doesn't matter. :eyes:

Guess what folks, you don't just wake up in the morning to a 0 percent unemployment. Other aspects of the economy (manufacturing, consumer confidence, retail sales, etc.) have to turn around before unemployment is affected. That's the way it works . . . deal with it.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

58. That sounds about right.

The odds of a double dip recession in 2010 are way down... probably 10% or less.

And the odds of a double-dip recession in 2011 are probably lass than one in three or so.

But notice how the headline and many comments here cast a story saying that the gloomy perspective was correct as evidence that it was incorrect.

What the article describes is precisely what the so-called gloomers have said since day one... No V-shaped Recovery. That has alway been the central thesis of the supposed pessimists because it was obvious and remains obvious.

The "gloom" school is the "L-shaped recovery" school and that's what we've got.

We are riding the top of the gloom scenario, not the bottom. Hence the recovery is, indeed, stronger than the average of gloom scenarios. It is also dramatically worse than what the WH expected, what yakkers like Larry Kudlow expected, what the stimulus was designed for.

The article describes raising a growth projection from 2.8 to 3.0% That is good. It is, however, 3.0%. That is precisely the kind of growth that has been long predicted in the gloomy scenario. People predicting 2-3% growth and lingering very high unemployment were predicting a weak recovery.

Seldom have goal-posts been moved so far as to view the vindication of the L-shaped recovery hypothesis as a refutation.

We have an L-shaped recovery that is more robust than the bottom range of gloomy scenarios.

And that is a lot better than the alternative. Housing sales are up, which is vital to any sustained recovery, even at low growth rates. And unemployment will probably be lower next year rather than higher.

And guess what? That was always one of the most plausible scenarios. (For instance, when Krugman predicted a 33% chance of a double dip recession in 2010 he was predicting a 66% chance of no double-dip recession.)

Almost nobody is predicting strong growth in the US economy going forward. Almost nobody is predicting a depression.

And that is good news.

[HughMoran]

59. You are overlooking the double-dippers

How can you say that anybody was expecting a "V" shaped recovery also? I've seen almost none of that sentiment here. No, I think you're looking to 'spin' this for some odd reason that I can't put my finger on...

[ShortnFiery]

62. Yes, the upper 1% is doing JUST FINE with our bail out tax dollars.

Everyone else? NOT SO MUCH! :grr: :puke: :grr:

[phleshdef]

73. Keep pretending like the bailout is actually going to end up costing us anything.

I know if you had to accept the truth, then you might be forced to drop your senseless political emo ramblings and accept that things are getting better contrary to your fatally flawed perception.

[girl gone mad]

74. The bailout will cost us trillions.

TARP overseer Barofsky has repeatedly stated that portion of the bailout will result in losses.

Further, the trillions the Fed has been printing and loaning to banks at 0% (or paying banks to borrow) has caused huge losses to those on a fixed income and savers.

Now the administration has taken a sharp turn into deficit hawk territory and is floating the idea of a VAT tax and cuts to "entitlement" programs to pay down the debt.

Yes, the middle class will pay the price for those massive Wall Street bailouts, one way or another.

[phleshdef]

75. The bailout will cost us practically nothing and 700 billion is less than even 1 trillion.

And most of the money is in fact being paid back.

The interest rate problem is unrelated to TARP. And you are talking about profit that "could have been" if the interest rates were not 0%. In no real world does "could have been" = "actual cost".

Keep throwing around voodoo math to make your point though. Its amusing amateur hour bullshit.

[TheKentuckian]

88. TARP is just the tippy top of the iceberg and is used as a distraction

from the tens of trillions of direct aid, non-direct aid, and guarantees.

Anyone "throwing around" the TARP fallacy is working for the robberbarons, intentionally or not.

[Zynx]

77. I really hope you aren't confusing ARRA with TARP because that would be just sad.

[yellowcanine]

68. OBAMA's POLICIES WILL NOT WORK SO STOP SAYING THAT!

[ipaint]

69. Oh good, I can't wait to get back to business as usual...

20 years of stagnant wages and rising poverty.


"The overwhelming problem today for most workers isn't this recession, as horrible as it is -- it's the fact that for every earned income level except the top 10%, average household income hasn't changed a bit for 10 years, and that for the bottom 60% of wage earners it hasn't changed for more than 20 years. Through economic expansions and recessions -- and bull and bear markets -- alike, 90% of workers in America have been standing still earnings-wise.

* And 100 million people, fully one-third of the entire U.S. population, are at or below "200% of the federal poverty line of $21,834 for a family of four", which is a needs-measure made lame by the fact that no family of four can actually comfortably live on such a low annual income."

http://www.alternet.org/story/145950/our_dirty_little_secret%3A_who%27s_really_poor_in_america?page=entire

And the criminals on wall street will apparently stay in charge, too big to fail and all. That bodes well for the future. Their future that is.

[BlooInBloo]

79. Threads like this remind me of that great song "I'm Only Happy When It Rains".

:rofl:

[thelordofhell]

85. Mmmmmm.......Shirley Manson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdodc1Eu1nA

:loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya:

[Name removed]

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