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sixmile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 08:27 PM
Original message
Jared Loughner was not too incompetent to plan, drive, load weapons, shoot...
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AlabamaLibrul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
1. Alerted
You have no clue how mental illness works.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. An incomplete understanding of mental illness is not a violation of DU Rules
so... :eyes:
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AlabamaLibrul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. It's a total load of crap against mentally ill people
The suggestion is that someone who's clearly "not there", well, they weren't crazy when they were doing the damn thing, and it comes up every single time.

It'd be different if this was said about one guy.
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Maru Kitteh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-11 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
23. +1
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
2. Yeah, I agree.
It didn't pass my smell test, either.
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Maru Kitteh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-11 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #2
24. you should lay some education on your "smeller" then.
Severely mentally ill people make elaborate plans every damn day. Of course it was easy for him to PLAN to get a gun. Why was it so easy for him to get one?
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-11 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. And you should mind your own business
I notice you hacks always like to tell people to 'learn more' or 'read more'. It gets old.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
3. he shaved his eyebrows too
crazy son, crazy..

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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
4. read up on the the legal differences in incompetency.....
Edited on Thu May-26-11 08:32 PM by madrchsod
especially before , during, and after a crime.
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
6. That's not the standard.
"The modern standard in U.S. law was established in Dusky v. United States (1960). Although
the exact wording varies, all states use a variant of the Dusky standard to define competency.

In Dusky, the Supreme Court held that:

It is not enough for the district judge to find that 'the defendant is oriented to time and place
and has some recollection of events', but that the test must be whether he has sufficient
present ability to consult with his lawyer with a reasonable degree of rational understanding --
and whether he has a rational as well as factual understanding of the proceedings against him.
(p.402)

http://www.unl.edu/ap-ls/student/CST%20assess.pdf
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Ptah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
8. However, he is not competent to assist in his defense.
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Yo_Mama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
9. His status at the time of the crime
has nothing to do with whether he is competent to stand trial NOW. It's not as if they are setting him loose. The constitutional right to a fair trial requires that this man not be put on trial at a time when he can't even absorb all that's happening, participate in his own defense, and process what is going on. You might as well put a person in a coma on trial.

It's clear from the internet postings and what happened at his college that he was degenerating rapidly - I read several of the reports by law officers before the crime. The guy was way off. In an interview at the college he was unable to understand and react to what they were saying. At that time he wouldn't have been capable of participating in his own defense, and that was before he attacked anyone.

It is not at all inconceivable that he is mentally incapable of assisting in his own defense now. For example, he may believe his lawyers are conspiring against him. He may be unable to answer their questions. He is almost certainly incapable of responding to a complex question. The psychiatrists have diagnosed him with schizophrenia, and schizophrenics are prone to delusions. A lot of schizophrenics respond well to drugs. He may be treated and become mentally stable enough to stand trial - but this certainly does pass the smell test now.

This is very classic schizophrenic onset pattern, although few become violent. They do experience immense and torturous confusion as their mental integrity breaks down, and passionate delusions are quite common - it's as if they use them to support their mental functioning in the midst of great confusion. One of my brother had a friend in high school who flipped into schizophrenic psychosis in college. In high school this boy was one sweet, solid kid who had a great future. By the time he was 22 at times he could barely function. He was utterly incapable of living alone. It was tragic.

Schizophrenia is an organic mental disease. This entire sequence of events is tragic, but even if this man recovers enough to be able legally to face trial, eventually he will be consigned to mental institution. He is guilty but mentally ill.
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Aerows Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. The tragic thing
is that while he was busy devolving right before everyone's eyes, is that he got no help to prevent the tragedy that ultimately happened.

I feel for the victims of his assault - the families, the loved ones, the friends of the people that were injured or murdered. But I can't help but wonder if someone could have intervened and prevented the nightmare from ever happening. It doesn't excuse it by any means - I'm just hoping we can learn something from it as a society, and prevent a tragedy like this from happening again.
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TexasProgresive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
10. A man had a blow out as he was passing the fenced yard of the state hospital.
As he was changing the flat one of the inmates watched from the fence and this made the man nervous. He had place the lug nuts in the hub cap and accidentally stepped on it tossing the nuts into the weeds. He hunted all over but could not find even one.

"Oh man, what am gonna do?"

Behind him he heard a throat clearing, "Dude, take one nut of of each of the other wheels and that will get you going."

The driver's mouth fell open, "That's really smart. What are you doing in there?"

The inmate smiled wryly, "I'm here because I'm crazy, not because I'm stupid."
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etherealtruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
11. Educate yourself
Its not about flaming. Its about educating one's self about the subject at hand.
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Puregonzo1188 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
12. He's obviously crazy. I'm not entirely sure what good prison would do him.
The whole things a tragedy all around.
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Aerows Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
13. The dude is a nutjob
I read some of the things he posted in forums, just like this one, and even people there were advising him to get help. He's crazy as a switch-engine.
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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
14. Paranoid Schizophrenics
can be methodical to the extent of being utterly retentive / OCD about things. That does not mean that they are connected to the reality we live in. These are two different things.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
15. A person can present themself to you as utterly copetent
and you still have no clue what is going on inside of them.
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Maru Kitteh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-11 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #15
26. Yup! The really smart ones are EXCELLENT at that.
By all accounts, Mr. Laughner was viciously ill, but quite bright. Had he been of more limited capacity, we never would have heard of him.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-11 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #15
35. yup, that's what makes some very dangerous
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Aerows Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
17. OK - someone needs to ask this question
Would the world be a better place if he would have been shot on scene? That's what happens when animals go rabid. He's a human being, yes, but after a certain point, isn't it more merciful to just end that life for all involved? He terminated the life of a 9 year old girl, and who knows how wonderful she might have been.

I think it's a dangerous precedent to even suggest it, which is why it doesn't occur, but in this case, I think mercy would have been that this young man would have died at the scene.

Am I way off? Does he have value to society anymore? Does he have value to himself anymore?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Yes, you are way off. n/t
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Aerows Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-11 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Probably
But I thought it was worth asking. It's pretty much the question of the value of human life.

That's it, and that was all I was asking.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-11 07:25 AM
Response to Reply #17
33. What would you want if you became that ill?
Imagining yourself in the position of the other person is the beginning of empathy.

You and I are more responsible for that child's death than Jared Loughner.

There will always be psychotic individuals, unfortunately, people slip through the cracks. That doesn't mean, however, that they have to live in a society of guns.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
19. The problem was not the mechanical skills of driving
or shooting. It was understanding the severity of what he was doing. The empathy, the understanding of what will happen as a result of his actions... that's the problem.
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jmowreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-11 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
20. Jared Loughner is crazier than Michele Bachmann. Okay?
He thinks he killed Gabrielle Giffords, which is what he went there to do. According to the AP, at his competency hearing he told the cops, "thank you for a free kill" and talked about how he stood over her dead body.

We can't try him for the very long string of crimes he committed because of his mental condition. We can, however, keep him in a comfortable place with large locks on the door until he is deemed competent to stand trial--which, according to the psychologists who've evaluated him, will probably be the rest of his life.
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Zoeisright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-11 01:24 AM
Response to Original message
22. No shit.
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Liquorice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-11 01:51 AM
Response to Original message
25. Society clearly needs to do a better job educating people about mental illness. nt
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-11 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. indeed. The OP is so sadly ignorant that it makes me feel hopeless about
educating people on the subject.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-11 02:49 AM
Response to Original message
29. Some people who are in the throes of acute psychosis can do all those things
that doesn't mean they're competent. I've seen it many times. I've spent considerable time with such people- including people who have murdered.
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ehrnst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-11 07:16 AM
Response to Original message
30. Please educate yourself on Paranoid Schizophrenia.
"This type of schizophrenia is dominated by relatively stable, often paranoid, delusions; this is accompanied by hallucinations, usually auditory, and perceptual disturbances.

**Disturbances of affect, volition, speech, and catatonic symptoms, are not prominent in this branch of schizophrenia.**
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-11 07:17 AM
Response to Original message
31. You obviously know very little about mental illness.
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-11 07:25 AM
Response to Original message
32. Not competent to stand trial NOW is not the same as not guilty by
reason of insanity at the time of the crime. Not competent to stand trial is procedural, not a verdict. He will eventually face trial when found to be competent after treatment or he will stay institutionalized.
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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-11 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
34. Have no fear ...
the plan is to cure his schizophrenia, then convict and execute him.
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hifiguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-27-11 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
36. Few people are better at scheming than
paranoid schizophrenics like Laughner. It is the center of their existence. That does not make them any less ill. And Laughner clearly has a bucketful of screws loose.
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