••• Loughner video – Loughner is NOT crazy, he's proof of the wasteland of American education. •••

[breadandwine]

Below is the video made by Jared Loughner, he's holding the camera and it's him talking. This was on YouTube, got taken off, the Los Angeles Times then posted it but not in a YouTube format and then someone took it off the L.A. Times website apparently, and reposted it on YouTube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuwpewADyx8

(L.A. Times link --- http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-jared-loughner-video-20110115,0,7041106.story )

What struck me about Loughner is that he is NOT crazy and has no justifiable insanity defense. HELL no. He is legally sane. He is a typical jaded, alienated teenager and an egocentric little snot who thinks he knows everything despite knowing very little. He obviously got his currency shtick from the right wing, they are the only ones who say that you have to go back to the gold standard. We now have "Federal Reserve Note" written on our dollar bills instead of "Silver Certificate" or some reference to the gold standard. There is too much wealth in the world for that. If the government were called on to give out a dollar's worth of gold to anyone wanting to trade in his paper dollar for gold, things would collapse because there is not enough gold in the world to do that today. But Loughner has gotten into his head that since in his mind our present currency is illegal, that means every dollar in every pocket is illegal, therefore every person is illegal and everybody but himself stinks. This is his instant way to condemn everyone, his school, his teachers, etc.

And in this respect he is no different from millions of other jaded, alienated, cynical teenagers all over America who dream up their own shallow theories for everything. What hits me about this video is not that Loughner is insane, he is clearly not. What hits me is the BANALITY of his comments. He's just an empty-headed nose-tapping smug little snot.

This proves that there is a crisis in education in America. Republicans don't want to spend money on education. We have an aching, crying need in this country for better education and more education funding. Loughner is a pseudo-intellectual who knows next to nothing and is so cynical and jaded and alienated by the shallow pop "wisdom" he picked up that his inner emptiness is literally dangerous to society. You can't have a free nation if its citizens are ignoramuses. Regardless of what happens to him in a court of law, the whole country is like this, shallow, alienated, jaded, cynical young people who are pseudo-intellectual at best and truly uneducated. The real horror is not that he is insane. The real horror is that he is NOT. There are MILLIONS of young people like him. His monstrous act cries out for better education in this country.

[rfranklin]

1. Oh please....

the guy is a loon.

[SidDithers]

3. +1...nt

Sid

[jkshaw]

87. His exgirlfriend claims he's faking insanity.

http://www.kgun9.com/Global/story.asp?S=13834898

[Catherina]

2. Unrec. What you wrote is as bizarre as Loughner. n/t

[cali]

32. that thought crossed my mind as well.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

4. He's spectacularly mentally ill.

Yes, our education system needs a lot of improvement. But it's not why Loughner did what he did. The guy is barking mad, not poorly educated.

[breadandwine]

5. Thank you for supporting the Republican insanity defense........

Republicans everywhere appreciate your comments.......

[blondeatlast]

7. So do reasonable people--and in Arizona, the insanity defense just keeps one form the electric chair

the criminal offenses are not for the Feds, they are against my state. He ain't getting off easy here, I can assure you.

Spare your name-calling.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

15. Oh, bullshit.

The fact that he's crazy -- and he is -- does not "support" anything, least of all the so-called "Republican insanity defense." For one thing, even though he's clearly disturbed, this does not mean an insanity defense would be successful, because in order to be found not guilty by reason of insanity you have to be unaware of the nature of your act (not understand that it is a crime) or be unable to control your actions. Look up the M'Naghten Rule some time.

The evidence we've seen so far does not support a successful insanity defense, since it appears that Loughner acted with premeditation and knew exactly what he was doing -- but it does support a conclusion that, clinically speaking, the guy is a long, long way from normal. And while there's no evidence so far that he was specifically responding to Palin's "crosshairs" campaign materials, a fair argument can be made that the vitriol and hate being emanating from Sarah and the teabaggers and other winguts would appeal to the more unhinged sorts of people, like Loughner, and could be expected to incite them to do bad things.

So, no; accepting the fact that he's nuttier than squirrel shit does not support a "Republican" view of the situation. It's just a fact. I like dealing in facts, even when they don't perfectly support my ideology. Ignoring facts in favor of a predetermined ideological outcome is more of a teabagger thing, wouldn't you say?

[Cetacea]

16. "nuttier than squirrel shit"

No stigma regarding the mentally ill. Right?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

18. Sorry if I offended.

[Cetacea]

24. No worries.

I do it to.

[pnwmom]

34. Are Republicans the only ones who understand schizophrenia

is a real disease?

[Lucian]

66. What a stupid post.

Of course he's insane. What, are Republicans the only ones to claim someone is insane?

Please. :eyes:

[fishwax]

78. thank you for supporting the republican attack on public education

Republicans everywhere appreciate your comments.......

[blondeatlast]

8. +1. Thank you. nt

[jody]

40. Those who disagree with you must believe that a properly educated jackass could win the Kentucky

Derby.

Personally I believe they're several beers short of a six pack but I could be wrong.

[femmocrat]

6. It's always the teachers' fault.

:eyes:

[blondeatlast]

10. Exactly--and the OP speaks of ReBPublican talking points above. If "teacher's fault"

isn't a ReBPublican orgasmic fantasy talking point, I don't know what is.

[LWolf]

48. + 1,000,000 nt

[breadandwine]

9. Note: A poll just out says 28% of Republicans are okay with armed revolt against the US government.

Are they all insane too?

[blondeatlast]

11. Can you cite the poll, please? nt

[breadandwine]

17. Here's the poll ----

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0111/47522.html




DU also had a report on it, not sure of the link for the DU post.

[FBaggins]

69. You haven't dscribed the poll honestly.

Was that intentional?

[jody]

56. Are you insane? The question was “Do you think it is ever justified for citizens to take violent

action against the government, or is it never justified?”

Unless you are 100% ignorant of why the founders of this nation fought to overthrow the Divine Right of Kings, you would know that 100% of those who pledged their lives and their assets would have voted "YES".
What part of "YES" don't you understand? :nuke:

[Ptah]

12. What is government if words have no meaning?

[boppers]

75. You are controlling the grammar.

Do you hear me, listener?

[snagglepuss]

13. Pot meet kettle. Please cite your qualifications to make this diagnosis

and also cite how and when you gained access to Loughner to complete the necessary interviews to arrive at your conclusion.

[jody]

14. What a crock. Apparently Loughner has a severe mental problem, was apolitical, and his personal

demons caused him to commit a crime that saddens many.

On the other hand, two people in a row, educated in the world's most prestigious universities, chosen by society to lead them, killed and continue to kill innocent people who have not and will not threaten the security of our nation.

I ask who is is the greater threat?

[breadandwine]

19. Jody, reread the title of your post. Then reread your last line, "We have met the enemy..."

Do you notice maybe a SUBTLE contradiction???????

[jody]

28. Contradiction? No confirmation. n/t

[Cetacea]

21. Shoot up a town wearing a uniform

and you are normal.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jkshaw]

89. breadandwine, I'm waiting with quite a bit of

interest for the judgment of doctors examining Loughner regarding the insanity plea. Here in Utah we had a guy tried for kidnapping a teenager -- a high profile case, the Smart kidnapping, the trial took forever -- and he really sounded loony, sang hymns in court, ignored his lawyers, wore a long, gray beard, but in the end the guy was judged sane and reasonable enough to be tried and was found guilty. His high jinks were considered what they were -- attention-getting, a soft berth in an institution perhaps.

I don't know how it came out, I can't imagine that guy in the general population in prison. But most people ended up sick of him, and news stories about him.

When I saw that picture of Loughner, shaved-head and loony grin, I suspected he was faking it. His ex-girlfriend claimed he was faking it, that he started his craziness about a half year ago. Neither she nor I can tell from pictures and videos he took of himself whether he's insane or not, certainly, although his girlfriend certainly knew him better than I do. But examination by the people who know should end the discussion.

I have no horse in this race, but only interest in whether Loughner will be smart enough to pull off an insanity plea.

[blondeatlast]

90. No one said he's innocent--not a single soul. nt

[jody]

31. "wearing a uniform" as in Iraq, Afghanistan, and many other nations. n/t

[Hello_Kitty]

49. I wouldn't call him apolitical.

Granted, his politics were an incoherent mishmash of conspiracy theories but they were political views. And apolitical people don't plan to assassinate elected officials.

[jody]

62. Please support with facts your assertion "plan to assassinate elected officials" because she was

"elected"?

CONJECTURE: Could he have targeted her simply because she was the most available object of federal government that he hated?

U.S. senators rarely visit voters thus congresspersons are the more available representative of Federal Government.

[Hello_Kitty]

82. Um, if your conjecture is true then it's also political.

Attacks on any representatives of the government, because they are with the government, are inherently political.

Sheesh, it's nothing to get bent out of shape about. Shooter dude was politically motivated.

[FSogol]

20. You hate young people. Got it.

:eyes:

[blondeatlast]

25. Ah, now I know why the OP's name rings familiar. nt

[breadandwine]

22. I cannot believe that so many here are playing into the Republican meme

that Loughner is just a loon.

[Ptah]

23. What is government if words have no meaning?

[blondeatlast]

35. In Arizona, he's very unlikely to escape the death penalty even if he is insane.

What do those of us who disagree with you have to gain from that? I am 100%, no holds barred, absolutely, dyed-in-the-wool against the DP and have participated in 11th hour protests in Florence on several occasions.

and that makes me a ReBPublican sympathizer--how?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

42. The fact that he is mentally ill -- and that's not a "meme"; it's reality --

does not get the righties off the hook for a minute. Their rhetoric can be expected to inspire antisocial or even violent behavior by mentally unstable people. It might even be intended (by some) to do that. Most people would interpret Palin's gun porn and crosshairs posters as metaphorical; a disturbed person might take it literally; that's the problem. Sane people don't shoot up political rallies or town-hall meetings or Unitarian churches, but mentally ill people sometimes do. The violent imagery of the right wing contributes to, inspires, and inflames their disturbed or delusional ideation. To dismiss Loughner's mental illness as somehow a Republican fallacy that relieves them of responsibility for their violent words is nonsense. Loughner is mentally ill, possibly paranoid schizophrenic (let's see what the shrinks say). His delusions are based on some common right-wing conspiracy theories. I don't have any trouble making a connection.

[Cetacea]

46. Sane people don't shoot up political rallies or town-hall

but they do shoot women and children.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

51. And how does this bear on the issue of Loughner's bad education or insanity?

I'm confused?

[madinmaryland]

27. Un-reccing for blaming the public education system in this country.

Un-fucking-believable that someone would even go there.

:wtf:

[blondeatlast]

39. Consider the irony--those of us who think Loughner is likely insane are "repeating Republican memes,

yet what is more orgasmically Republican than blaming the public education system?

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. Legally you got a point.

In the legal system he will get a poor hearing... But as a medic I can tell you there are a few things that are striking in that video... Starting with....deep paranoia.

That kid is not well. Now to say that he fits the definittion of criminally insante...no. There is motive, there is planning, he knew what he was doing.

But don't confuse the two.

He is medically quite sick.

[breadandwine]

45. I'm not disagreeing with what you say, nadinbrzezinski. But I have met lots of shallow young people

who talk rather like Loughner in the video. The difference to me is one of degree.


I'll give you another example. Several years ago there was a poll taken in a high school. It asked, if a girl has been going with a guy for umpteeump months and she has refused in all that time to have sex with him, does he have the right to force her? A majority said yes.

There is a name for that. It's called RAPE. A majority of students in that high school said that was okay.

Those students are not all insane. They are just shallow, empty-headed idiots who are poorly educated. You can't say they are all crazy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. I am limiting this to Laughner

Medically he is nuts... To use a colloquialism.

We have many issues in the schools, a lot of this have to do with parents... Oh and a few of those kids were clinically in some sort of psychiatric distress, just from statistics.

But to ascribe deep paranoia to the school system is nuts...

[blondeatlast]

52. "...lots..." Define, please. nt

[cali]

30. he's floridly ill, and this vid is a prime example of it.

wow, just wow, that you think this demonstrates his sanity.

and no, there are not millions of kids just like him.

[ohheckyeah]

33. Maybe it makes more sense

to wait until qualified professionals have examined Loughner before anyone declares he's crazy or not crazy. I seriously doubt you are qualified to make a diagnosis and that you have actually examined and interviewed Loughner.

[JonLP24]

38. I agree

but I don't see the same comments in the hundreds of threads speculating that the shooter is crazy.

[ohheckyeah]

65. That's on the people making the

comments. We don't know for sure what the mental evaluation of this guy will determine.

[madinmaryland]

88. Welcome to DU, and GD!!

:hi:

[seabeyond]

36. the education is there. it has always been there. it is there now even tougher. up to kid to take

advantage of the education that is offered. i am watching my kids, in their school, doing beyond what i ever did. working their ass off.

i am thinking it is not an education problem. there is something in home environment and parental expectation.

that being said

i did not watch the video and not making a statement on sanity or not. talking about your post and lack of academics in schools. bullshit.

[pnwmom]

37. This isn't what American education did to him. It's what his ravaged mind

has done to him. And there are millions of people like him -- with schizophrenia, psycho-affective disorders, etc.

[Cetacea]

41. And none of them

are more prone to violence than those without said illnesses. As a matter ir fact, they are 2 1/2 times more likely to be the victims of violence. Ever wonder why?

[pnwmom]

58. I don't know why, but I would guess they're more prone to be victims

because so many of them end up on the streets.

[notadmblnd]

43. Why do you hate kids?

[proud2BlibKansan]

44. Ah geez. Unrec.

So now it's education's fault. I should have figured it was only a matter of time.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[breadandwine]

54. proud2BlibKansanm, do you think Glenn Beck would be so popular if his fans actually KNEW something?

How would you rate THEIR education level.


And oh --- Beck makes $32 million a year in salary thanks to those ignorant fans of his.



Are they too all lone nuts?


By the way, Hitler was democratically elected. Were those who voted for him all lone nuts too?

[REP]

55. I now understand your beef with the school system.

I'm sorry it failed you.

[Bluenorthwest]

81. His audience is less than 1% of the country

And that is a bit of a problem for you. He's not 'so popular'. He's a cult sensation at best.

[Lucian]

68. +1

[howaboutme]

53. Why do authorities remove every vestige

of existence from those who do such outrageous acts?

Why not allow the public to read posts or watch YouTubes and then make their own decision if this dude is a loony? Is he angry or does he have something to say that might give us a perspective on his outlook that caused him to flip out?

Today it is doubtful that Ted Koznsinki "aka unibomber" would ever have had his manifesto available to be read. Remember the guy who shot the guard at the Holocaust museum and then died in prison. If you Google him, and I can't remember his name, it is though he never existed. The lives of perps are now sanitized by authorities.

Why do the authorities now strip anything they have ever said or posted on the internet and keep it away from the public? Perhaps we could learn just how crazed they are or their perspective. Perhaps the policy of disappearance by rendition is not limited to their physical being, and also it occurs with their existence. The change in our society is a scary scenario.

[Rex]

57. I think you could have stopped at 'wasteland of America'.

This is more a cultural thingy then an education thingy imo. But we do need more money put into education around the country, desperately, as corporate overlords try to shutdown public education for good.

[toddaa]

59. Who do you think you are? Rand Paul?

The video is about 3 minutes long. More than enough time for an armchair psychiatrist to make a diagnosis.

[SidDithers]

60. Well, that didn't go like you'd hoped...

but, apparently, it's everyone else who's wrong. Not you.

Sid

[breadandwine]

61. Maybe I should clarify.

What some are saying here on this thread is unwittingly in support of what Sarah Palin said in her little video defending herself. She insisted that Loughner was not motivated by any political beliefs, and she bore no share of the blame nor did anyone else on the right. In her view Loughner was just a lone nut and the crosshairs on her website had nothing to do with it. Sharron Angle's "Second Amendment remedies" and her "Take Harry Ried out" comments had nothing to do with it. Glenn Beck's attack on the Tides Foundation had nothing to do with it. The gun toting thugs working for Joe Miller and carrying assault rifles to his rallies had nothing to do with it. All the people who showed up with guns at Rand Paul rallies had nothing to do with it.

THE WHOLE CLIMATE OF REPUBLICAN VIOLENCE WE HAVE SEEN IN THIS LAST ELECTION HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.


No. Jared Loughner is just an isolated lone nut.


Sure. You must be right. I'm sure there will be plenty of people over at Free Republic who will agree with you.

[cali]

63. baloney. codswallop. bullshit.

just because we disagree with your lame op, hardly means we're unwittingly supporting Palin. Loughner may have been influenced by political speech from the right, but his psychotic ramblings, both written and video, reflect severe mental illness.

[Ptah]

64. What is government if words have no meaning?

[Cetacea]

67. Because we can't handle the fact that people will kill for their ideas

So we blame it on the lone nuts. Or mental illness. Even if he is mentally ill, we believe he can't possibly be influenced by hate rhetoric because he is nuts. See how that works?
No one questioned the sanity of the police officers who shot the Jewish schizophrenic 14 times for pounding his hammer on the sidewalk outside his home. They and everyone else knew that he was ill.
As in "nuts", "schizo". That was all of the dehumanization they needed to shoot him fourteen times, long after he was down.



edit. link: http://www.thejewishweek.com/features/he_was_trying_find_his_niche

[tiny elvis]

101. clarified

to say loughner is insane is to support palin
therefore, loughner is sane

[NNN0LHI]

70. Deleted sub-thread

Fooled ya didn't I?

Don

[MattBaggins]

71. Nope... He crazy

[JohnnyLib2]

72. How on earth do you see his mental status as an either/or deal?

Psychotic states are most often transitory, as are suicidal moods, bipolar swings, various kinds of rage, etc., etc.

Seems to me all indications are that he was a troubled fellow who wasn't benefiting from community college classes well before that awful day. And, he apparently hadn't been in an over-the-top, murderous state on any previous day as far as anyone knows.

Humans are complicated......

[Codeine]

73. He's as nutty as a shithouse rat.

That's not a "Republican meme", that's just obvious reality.

[Warpy]

74. What comes across is a young man who

is crazier than a shithouse rat. I say that as somebody with years spent working in psychiatric settings. He's not merely alienated. He's not even particularly intelligent, certainly not intelligent enough to be discussing semantics above the level of Sarah Palin supporter. He's spinning out into space and desperate to find a way back in while being terrified he'll lose himself in that process.

I've seen this kid before in a lot of different settings. Usually they're too confused and terrified to act out in any way and likely he'd have gotten to that point eventually. Unfortunately, somebody sold him a gun first.

[Catherina]

80. Excellent post. Wish I could rec n/t

[blondeatlast]

86. Last paragraph--chilling. You have a way to get to the heart of the matter.

I may co-opt your very last sentence--it speaks volumes in general, not just about Loughner.

[anAustralianobserver]

76. hmm; looks like he thinks he's woken up from the Matrix

where the Matrix is a conspiracy of government mind control through manipulation of 'grammar' and 'currency' (including in the education system)

which he might have taken partly from David Wynn Miller.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Wynn_Miller
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_Citizen_Movement

He probably sees the 2 major parties equally as part of it, which begs the question of whether he loosely identified himself with the Libertarian party (especially since he opposed Bush and the Iraq war) or any other fringe parts of the Tea Party movement.

There are left-leaning shows/sites which deal with some of these themes, eg the conspiracy shows on KPFK, but they tend to be pacifist rather than violent.

He seems to treat regular people like brainwashed automatons who can't see what he sees, which may have left him in a state of constant paranoia, and led him to bursts of cynical aggression at random people.

Still a mystery to me why he targeted Gabrielle Giffords. Maybe he thought it would be effective in 'waking people up' for some reason.

Maybe he did leave a manifesto rant on the letter or somewhere else.

[fishwax]

77. using the ramblings of one individual as proof the entire education system is broken is silly

And you think that tape proves his sanity?

[breadandwine]

95. This country just elected a Republican Congress full of Tea Baggers ---

and it is your testimony that this country is well-educated?????

[fishwax]

97. so the education system is responsible for the last election?

:shrug:

[Forkboy]

99. Reading your posts makes me question our education system more than you intended.

[maritimer]

79. Jaded, cynical kids don't shoot up crowds of people-

they usually just crab about it to their buddies. I think he has some real problems, and if you take a gander at comments from friends, acquaintances, and former teachers, you can see he was sliding into some kind of real pathology here. It's both sad and ironic that he will now, finally, get the evaluation and medication he should have had as a teenager.

In short, I think you've jumped to premature conclusions. You can't diagnose someone on the basis of a video or any one single thing. Look at the end result- is this a typical kid? FFS, it's been one week. ONE WEEK. Let's see how it goes as time goes on.

To add: I am not condoning or supporting GOP nutjob hate speech of any kind. In fact, that atmosphere of hostility possibly gave this young man the edge or impetus to move forward with his actions.

Be good to one another!

[Nye Bevan]

83. ••• I know you're proud of your little black circles •••

••• but if he got his "currency shtick" from the right wing, where did he get his "both wars are illegal" shtick from? •••

[fishwax]

84. he says the reason the war is illegal is because of currency

[Catherina]

91. He said illegal because of the Geneva Convention, nothing about currency

unless I missed something reading his threads and watching his videos.


In a thread called A look at a war in Iran and what would likely happen

Here is what Jared wrote:

A look at a war in Iran and what would likely happen

There was help with cleaning the uranium from the Iran and Iraq war in the 1980's?

Article 33 of the Geneva Convention is the prohibit of pillage.

All military invasions with armed forces into a foreign country are war crimes in the Geneva Convention articles of 1949.

The Iraq and Afghanistan war of 2010 is a military invasion with armed forces into a foreign country.

Therefore, Iraq and Afghanistan war of 2010 is a war crime from the Geneva Convention articles of 1949.


Ouch! For the thoughts of war.

[fishwax]

94. in the video from the OP he says the reason the war is illegal is because of the currency

"The war that we are in right now is currently illegal under the constitution. What makes it illegal is the currency."

(At about 37 seconds in)

[Catherina]

98. Thanks very much. I missed that. n/t

[Godhumor]

85. Not bad, I give it a 6. If you'd managed to work video games into it, I might have gone as high as

an 8.

[PufPuf23]

92. Stochastic terrorism should be a meme among liberals and DU

The shooter's rants came from frustration of zero opportunity and max teen alienation meets Randian libertaianism (whether Ron/Rand or Ayn Rand).

Just watched the Pima Community college video today. Jared was influenced by the fringe to Tea Party Libertarian insanity in his rhetoric.

There is a crisis in education in America and trends are not favorable in a bi-partisan sense in that the neo-liberals are a nightmare invasive in our own Party. The stupidity and faux and bought media leave me gobsmacked after nearly 60 years of life, lots of experience, and world class education. The demonstrations and successes in civil rights, anti-war, and freedom of the individual from the 60s and 70s have been demonized. Frankly, many of us among the liberal Democrtic Party members came of age and were educated then and remember.

[Dappleganger]

93. When all else fails blame the guvmint skools...

right?

:sarcasm:

[breadandwine]

96. Millions in this country think global warming's a myth because they heard that on the radio.

They are well educated??????????

[Forkboy]

100. Keep working it, baby!

[MilesColtrane]

102. In the video he says hello to a random dude on campus.

Then goes on to assert of that that student had taken away his "freedom of speech" during the brief exchange.

That was followed by several seconds of insane giggling.

What kind of failure of education turns the sky orange and the grass blue?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/01/12/national/main7238230.shtml

He would admit to seeing the sky as orange and the grass as blue.