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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-11 09:45 PM
Original message
Government Spying on Americans -- Doesn't Any One Care?


Who gives a damn?



Doesn't Any One Care?

Government Spying on Americans


By SHELDON RICHMAN
CounterPunch
Weekend Edition
January 14, 2011

Most Americans seem detached from the U.S. government's military actions in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, and elsewhere. U.S. forces not only engage in wanton killing and harsh treatment of prisoners, but also surveillance and other intelligence activities that might appall the American people if they were used at home.

Well, guess what: "Technologies and techniques honed for use on the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan have migrated into the hands of law enforcement agencies in America7" writes the Washington Post in its continuing series, "Top Secret America."

The Post reports:
    "Nine years after the terrorist attacks of 2001, the United States is assembling a vast domestic intelligence apparatus to collect information about Americans, using the FBI, local police, state homeland security offices and military criminal investigators.

    "The system, by far the largest and most technologically sophisticated in the nation's history, collects, stores and analyzes information about thousands of U.S. citizens and residents, many of whom have not been accused of any wrongdoing.

    "The government's goal is to have every state and local law enforcement agency in the country feed information to Washington to buttress the work of the FBI, which is in charge of terrorism investigations in the United States."
Sad to say, this article has gotten little attention. Is it a matter of so little importance? Governments at all levels are united in a campaign to spy on Americans, gathering, analyzing, and storing data without probable cause and hardly anyone seems to care.

Have Americans become so docile that they roll over for anything rationalized as necessary in the "war on terror"? If so, they have abandoned one of greatest virtues of early generations: suspicion of power. They might as well stop talking about liberty and individualism because it just a lot of empty words now.

CONTINUED...

http://counterpunch.org/richman01142011.html



Sen. Frank Church warned what would happen if the NSA turned its spy satellites and eavesdropping technologies on the American people.

That capability at any time could be turned around on the American people, and no American would have any privacy left, such is the capability to monitor everything: telephone conversations, telegrams, it doesnt matter. There would be no place to hide.

Church added that if a dictator ever took over, the NSA could enable to impose total tyranny, and there would be no way to fight back.

So, do you give a damn? If you believe in Democracy, you should.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-11 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. But it's a DEM doing it so it's OK!!!
:sarcasm:
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-11 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. You got that right. He will do what no RWer would DARE to even attempt.
:cry:
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-11 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. The President is a constitutional scholar, too.
If We the People aren't allowed to express our thoughts to one another, whether individually or in a peaceable assembly, this no longer will be -- or no longer is -- the United States of America.



Bertram Gross pegged it, pre-Reagan: Friendly Fascism.
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molly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
60. Comment from the Guardian re. Spain's right to try torturers
Perhaps if the US had stuck to torturing & lynching its own citizens, rather than kidnapping people from all points of the globe, they'd attract less international opprobrium.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-11 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
21. Well, exactly!
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #1
27. Yes. Democrats can always accomplish right wing goals
that Republicans can only dream of, because people don't have their guard up when Democrats are in charge. Democrats can sneak the right wing stuff through claiming it isn't what it is.

NAFTA, for example, wasn't really going to be an open boarders give-away for large corporations, exporting jobs, decimating wages, and destroying unions, except that it was. Free trade was always the fringe Republican wet dream, but it took Clinton, a Democrat, to really implement it and make it standard and acceptable. Now Free Trade is routine. Anyone who opposes free trade agreements is considered a fringe wacko.

The idea that insurance companies were integral and necessary to health care in the US used to be an entirely Republican idea. Democrats had Medicare, Medicaid, and the VA as examples of socialized medicine that either did not use insurance or minimized reliance on insurance. Democrats also had long time aspirations towards universal health care. Democrats had also historically given us public hospitals, and they worked damned well for decades. It was Republicans who insisted that hospitals had to be privatized, and private insurance was the only way to go for providing health care. Now, here we are with Democrats entirely buying into the republican model, so far into the republican model in fact, that Democrats are mandating by law that everyone must buy into those old republican models. The traditional democratic ideals and models have are being destroyed by democrats.

This is why we need to be vigilant and watch our own party. Corruption in our own party is worse than the ambitions of the right wing. We all know what the right wing wants, and we are all united against it, but far too many people in our party look the other way when it is our party that is working towards those same goals. Worse, far too many people in our party HELP work towards horrible goals just because it is our party in charge when those goals are implemented.

Evil is evil no matter who is sitting in the big chair, or which team he is on.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. It took a "populist" to destroy the Roman Republic (Caesar).
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #28
32. If you can fool the people into giving you power that you are
willing to misuse, and you are willing and able to misuse it against those very people, there is no limit to the harm you can do.

That is what we have seen, and what we are seeing. :(
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snot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 03:00 AM
Response to Reply #27
33. +1
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Autumn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #27
54. We have screwed the pooch by voting for Democrats who are
nothing more than republicans using the failed logic that we have to vote for them because they are better than the republican. But evidently we are willing to let them do whatever they want because they have that " D " behind them. It's time to fight the fake Democrats as well as we do the republicans.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #27
82. I'm with you.
I will vote accordingly.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #82
90. Me, too -- !!
Will have to vote my conscience -- if there's a Dem around like Bernie Sanders,

they'll have my vote!

But neither Obama nor Biden fit my conscience -- !!

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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
30. Dr West speaks truth
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CommonSensePLZ Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-11 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
109. It didn't seem like people really cared much under Bush either.. nt
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RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-11 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
2. Many Americans today are too lame to care. Many only care about ME ME ME and
Edited on Sun Jan-16-11 10:18 PM by RKP5637
unless it smacks them right on the nose they don't give a F unless they've somehow been inconvenienced. Many keep their head stuck in the sand or up their butt. It's because this county had it so good after WWII. Many somehow think America is immune to anything and seemingly know very little about history. One can just spin the channels on the TV and any sane person walks away wondering WTF who watches this BS.

And then we have MSM. No wonder so many are so ignorant.


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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-11 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. I dream of a 120-inch HDTV 1080P Flat Screen with Showtime
So, I must've missed this story.

A damning admission: New York Times concealed NSA spying until after 2004 election

Don't worry, Corporate McPravda, WSWS has got your back.

Not that half the country would've bothered to vote, anyway.
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RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-11 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #8
99. Next Christmas!!! LOL n/t
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DJ13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-11 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
4. Chains you can believe in
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Capitalocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-11 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. Ouch
Tough stance, but I definitely can't argue with it.

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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-11 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
22. Nicely said
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
70. Brilliant!!
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pottersvilleusa Donating Member (54 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
92. Very good
That would be truth in advertising.
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
96. Ouch, but k&r!
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-11 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
105. Brilliant...
I'd K&R this if it were a thread.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-11 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
5. I heard or read somewhere that our citizens are the most "spied on" by their
government -- in the world.

What's become of this country is surreal. It's like watching a futuristic movie, only it's happening now. We just don't "see" it, so most are unaware, and others would say "if it protects our country, fine, I have nothing to hide". It's suffocating.
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RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-11 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. And to them I say it is relative to who is spying and on whom. They make this
assumption that none in power can ever do wrong, and that always illustrates to me how ignorant they are of history. As you say, it's suffocating. I have no idea where we are "really" headed, but to me the paranoia is being used far beyond national security. Control freaks would love to pigeon hole every American into a slot with a detailed file on each individual citizen, long their dream, but now a reality with the technology of today. And Americans don't seem to care much. And I wonder WTF.




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fatbuckel Donating Member (518 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #5
42. Satch the movie"EagleEye". 98.6% of that tech exists right now. Once they centralize it...
Why do you think the big push for IP cameras? Hell, there's even an app for that.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #5
71. The Brits are.
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toddaa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-11 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
7. A new season of American Idol starts next week
No one in America gives a shit about the stupid 4th Amendment.
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Angry Dragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-11 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. I am waiting for Dancing with the Stars .....Toad is
going to on maybe ......... can't wait
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #7
72. And you know about AI how? Another attendee at the Holier-Than-Thou School.
Edited on Mon Jan-17-11 05:13 PM by WinkyDink
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toddaa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #72
80. Some of us have jobs in cubicle land
It's annoying as fuck.
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-11 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #72
106. If you pay attention to any type of media, print, internet,
tv, radio, you are going to know what AI is.

My wife and I argue about Idol all the time. I think it's a piece of shit life sucking vampire that rewards "mirror singers" and manufactures "talent" to spoon feed a complicit public, crappy pop pablum music suited for the masses.

She thinks it's fun.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-11 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
10. Thanks for keeping on top of it......and still trying.....
:kick:
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #10
44. Lockheed Martin Is Big Brother
Edited on Mon Jan-17-11 09:07 AM by Octafish


Here's more on un-Admirable Poindexter's chums -- Information you don't get from ABCNNBCBSFakeNoiseNutworks and the rest of Corporate McPravda:



Giant weapons maker becomes Big Brother

By William D Hartung
DISPATCHES FROM AMERICA
Asia Times

Have you noticed that Lockheed Martin, the giant weapons corporation, is shadowing you? No? Then you haven't been paying much attention. Let me put it this way: If you have a life, Lockheed Martin is likely a part of it.

True, Lockheed Martin doesn't actually run the United States government, but sometimes it seems as if it might as well. After all, it received US$36 billion in government contracts in 2008 alone, more than any company in history. It now does work for more than two dozen government agencies from the Department of Defense and the Department of Energy to the Department of Agriculture and the Environmental Protection Agency.

It's involved in surveillance and information processing for the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), the National Security Agency (NSA), the Pentagon, the Census Bureau, and the Postal Service.

Oh, and Lockheed Martin has even helped train those friendly Transportation Security Administration agents who pat you down at the airport. Naturally, the company produces cluster bombs, designs nuclear weapons, and makes the F-35 Lightning (an overpriced, behind-schedule, underperforming combat aircraft that is slated to be bought by customers in more than a dozen countries) - and when it comes to weaponry, that's just the start of a long list.

In recent times, though, it's moved beyond anything usually associated with a weapons corporation and has been virtually running its own foreign policy, doing everything from hiring interrogators for US overseas prisons (including at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba and Abu Ghraib in Iraq) to managing a private intelligence network in Pakistan and helping write the Afghan constitution.

CONTINUED...

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MA14Ak02.html



Thank you, KoKo. I very much appreciate what you do. It's clear who gives a damn about Democracy.
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hay rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #44
53. Another eye-opener.
Thanks for the link.
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-11 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
11. If it saves us money,at least from what I hear here, it is a good thing
Money is more important than freedom and choice.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-11 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
12. The answer is yes.
"Have Americans become so docile that they roll over for anything rationalized as necessary in the "war on terror"?"
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BlueJac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #12
38. Sorry to say yes to your question.
Just leave their Ipod, Ipad, cell phone, Facebook, twitter, and cable tv alone.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #12
46. I agree.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-11 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
13. Isn't Congress supposed to be protecting the "people" and the Constitution ...?
We have a Congress made up of millionaires and multi-millionaires and we're

seriously expecting them to protect us?

They're frightened we're going to take their money -- raise their taxes --

hold them accountable for all the stuff they've already done --

Global Warming, wars, war profiteering, engineered economic crises and forced

bail outs, ignoring the sick and needy, undermining safety nets --

For their own personal profit, the people have been sacrificed -- and if we're

ever going to begin fighting back -- NON VIOLENTLY AND ONLY NON-VIOLENTLY -- it

had best begin very soon.

We need to organize ourselves -- unite --

organize the unemployed -- and the long term unemployed --

and unite them with the employed --

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-11 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
14. dupe
Edited on Sun Jan-16-11 10:25 PM by defendandprotect
We have a Congress made up of millionaires and multi-millionaires and we're

seriously expecting them to protect us?

They're frightened we're going to take their money -- raise their taxes --

hold them accountable for all the stuff they've already done --

Global Warming, wars, war profiteering, engineered economic crises and forced

bail outs, ignoring the sick and needy, undermining safety nets --

For their own personal profit, the people have been sacrificed -- and if we're

ever going to begin fighting back -- NON VIOLENTLY AND ONLY NON-VIOLENTLY -- it

had best begin very soon.

We need to organize ourselves -- unite --

organize the unemployed -- and the long term unemployed --

and unite them with the employed --


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unkachuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-11 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
16. K&R....the terrorists have already won....n/t
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RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-11 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. And I bet many are laughing at the tailspin this country is perpetually in ... n/t
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Kaleko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-11 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. It's a dry heaving laugh
I hear from Europeans who saw the telltale signs of fascism taking the reigns during these last ten years. Most of my friends have left the USA by now because the atmosphere is eerily reminiscent of what their ancestors went through in the 1930s all over Europe.

Once the intelligentsia, the inventors and artists are leaving a country, watch out! These are usually the bravest and most adventurous folks who don't shy away from taking on the biggest challenges. When these people no longer see a way back from the hellhole of a police state in a closing society, the rest of the citizens are in for a very rude awakening.

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RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. I often ask myself anymore why would anyone want to immigrate to America if
they were talented, educated and had better options. There are many delightful places to live in the world and sadly American is falling off of the list. I had my chance to be educated and live in Canada many decades ago and I gave up that choice, now looking back I made a mistake.

I'm really wondering anymore what this country will be like in say ten years and I don't come up with many good scenarios. It is becoming very reminiscent of the 1930s. I question how many Americans know their history well enough to even relate to what that was like.


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Kaleko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. Talented, educated and enterprising people are LEAVING America right now.
Not to mention the wealthy who can buy citizenship for themselves and their families anywhere they wish. That's what I hear and see from my perch on the hilltop in an undisclosed location :)

Obama's betrayal of his enthusiastic base was the last straw. Revealing himself as yet another Wall Street shill broke the trust invested in him all over the world. He also broke the donkey's back. The Democratic Party is no longer offering any kind of trustworthy opposition to the bankers who are buying the government they want with absolute impunity.

A series of financial crashes are coming. They are inevitable now -- that's what I see, though I wish with all my might it wasn't so.

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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #23
45. as if there is anywhere to run to. nt
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tularetom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-11 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
19. If you haven't done anything wrong you have nothing to worry about
(I'm not adding no damn sarcasm smiley - if you can't recognize it maybe you belong on free republic)
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Puregonzo1188 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-11 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
20. Yes, I do. But many, including those here at DU, don't seem to.
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johnroshan Donating Member (333 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. Socialists often have an overarching trust on their Government.
Often times, that trust is unwarranted.

Also, I see a lot of DUers falling for speeches and fail to see actual policy decisions. Obama's speeches are spectacular, his policy track record, not so much.

John.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #25
29. Most of those posters are not socialists, but blind followers. I'M a socialist.
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socialist_n_TN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #29
51. As am I. And I don't trust ANY government.............
with capitalists in charge of it.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #25
43. tell that to the right wingers who have no problem with the Patriot Act
then get back to us about socialists.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #43
65. "the right wingers who have no problem with the Patriot Act" ?
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 12:55 AM
Response to Original message
31. I don't believe......
Edited on Mon Jan-17-11 01:06 AM by DeSwiss
...that a lack of concern or caring for democracy is what the problem is. The problem(s) that we have now are the same one(s) we've had from the start. And they are quite simple to understand, actually.

Simple, yet apparently insurmountable for humanity to overcome.

Dickens identified them quite well. The problem is a lack of freedom.

"Freedom from want and ignorance."


THAT'S THE PROBLEM.

- Until we can cure these two, democracy doesn't have a chance......

K&R

So if we are talking change through revolt, we're necessarily talking about deconditioning because the thing we fear already has a life deep in our own consciousness. Deconditioning from cultural ignorance is at the heart of any insurrectionary politics. Deconditioning also involves risk and suffering. But it is transformative, freeing the self from helplessness and fear. It unleashes the fifth freedom, the right to an autonomous consciousness. That makes deconditioning about as individual and personal act as is possible. Maybe the only genuine individual act.

Once unencumbered by self-induced and manufactured cultural ignorance, it becomes clear that politics worldwide is entirely about money, power and national mythology, with or without some degree of human rights. America still has all of the above to one degree or another. Yet for all practical purposes, such as advancing the freedom and the well being of its own people, the American republic has collapsed.

Of course, there is still money to be made by the already rich. So the million or so people who own the country and the government use their control to convince us that there is no collapse, just economic and political problems that need to be solved. Naturally, they are willing to do that for us. Consequently, the economy is discussed in political terms, because the government is the only body with the power to legislate, and therefore render the will of the owning class into law.

But politics and money are never going to fill what is essentially a public vacuum that is moral, philosophical and spiritual. (The latter was instantly recognized by fundamentalist Christians, disfigured by cultural ignorance, as they may be.) Not many ordinary Americans talk about this vacuum. The required spiritual and philosophical language has been successfully purged by newspeak, popular culture, a human regimentation process masquerading as a national educational system, and the ruthlessness of everyday competition, which leaves no time to contemplate anything.

Still, the void, the meaninglessness of ordinary work and the emptiness of daily life scares thinking citizens shitless, with its many unspeakables, spy cams, security state pronouncements, citizens being economically disappeared, and general back-of-the-mind unease. Capitalism's faceless machinery has colonized our very souls. If the political was not personal to begin with, it's personal now.

Some Americans believe we can collectively triumph over the monolith we presently fear and worship. Others believe the best we can do is to find the personal strength to endure and go forward on lonely inner plains of the self. Doing either will take inner moral, spiritual and intellectual liberation. It all depends on where you choose to fight your battle. Or if you even choose to fight it. But one thing is certain. The only way out is in.

http://www.joebageant.com/joe/2010/12/america-y-ur-peeps-b-so-dum.html">~Joe Bageant, "America Y UR Peeps B So Dum?"
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snot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 03:12 AM
Response to Reply #31
35. Deserves its own post; thanks.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 03:06 AM
Response to Original message
34. Nobody cared in the 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's. 90's, 00's...
What's new? Oh, nothing? Okay then.

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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #34
61. That is such a weak and tired argument.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #61
83. Yeah, after 70 years, it tends to be a bit stale.
What to do about that, though?
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 03:24 AM
Response to Original message
36. Bad when bush does it. Just fine when Obama does.
Or don't you read much here on DU?
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BlueJac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 07:38 AM
Response to Original message
37. Now that Obama is calling the shots, it's all good....
:sarcasm:


Does anyone know where my country went?
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #37
88. I wonder.
I wonder if he actually is.
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BlueMTexpat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
39. We in the US may not care about our government's invasion of
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Kip Humphrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
40. Hell, they could just subscribe to Facebook.
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molly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 08:16 AM
Response to Original message
41. I care.That is why I am so intrigued with Julian Assange.
Heard the Patriot Act is coming up for renewal.That will be an interesting vote. Hope for the best.
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
47. I'm not entirely convinced by this article, for several reasons,

Most importantly, I think it misses the basic point that on balance the law enforcement agencies being able to gather information more reliably is overwhelmingly a *good* thing - it means more guilty people being convicted, and less chance of innocent people being.

Lots of people talk about the tradeoff between liberty and security. At any given level of technology there's a tradeoff between the two, but improving technology enables one to enlarge the cake rather than just cutting it differently - for example, better technology to detect explosives would make it possible to reduce the impositions of airport security on travelers without making blowing up a plane easier.


This article doesn't provide evidence of, or even allege, abuses of improved spying technology, it merely says that they are possible. But existing technology is already abuseable and abused.

The limits on what information security services (*not* "the government" - nearly all spying/intelligence gathering etc is done many levels down from political control) are and aren't gathering should be a matter of what the law allows them to gather, not what the technology enables them to gather. The police being able to find out everything they are legally allowed to find out, quickly and easily, is a good thing; the important issue is what are they legally allowed to find out.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #47
49. Ugh, it appears you missed the entire point of this post.
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #49
52. Not missed, disagreed with. If anything, you missed my point.
The "point" of the OP is that improved espionage technology has the potential to be abused; I think that this is not terribly important because existing technology can already be similarly abused, and that we should be tackling the usage rather than the technology.
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hay rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #52
75. Corollary.
If existing technology can be used abusively, more powerful technology can be misused to even greater ill effect. And in the real world, greater potential ill-gotten gains to be had from improved technology means a greater temptation to use the same.

In reply 44, the poster links to another article about Lockheed Martin. Link repeated: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MA14Ak02.html

From that article:
"Tim Shorrock, author of the seminal book Spies for Hire, has described Lockheed Martin as "the largest defense contractor and private intelligence force in the world". As far back as 2002, the company plunged into the "Total Information Awareness" (TIA) program that was former National Security Advisor Admiral John Poindexter's pet project. A giant database to collect telephone numbers, credit cards, and reams of other personal data from US citizens in the name of fighting terrorism, the program was de-funded by congress the following year, but concerns remain that the National Security Agency is now running a similar secret program.

In the meantime, since at least 2004, Lockheed Martin has been involved in the Pentagon's Counter-Intelligence Field Activity (CIFA), which collected personal data on American citizens for storage in a database known as "Threat and Local Observation Notice" (and far more dramatically by the acronym TALON).

While congress shut down the domestic spying aspect of the program in 2007 (assuming, that is, that the Pentagon followed orders), CIFA itself continues to operate.

In 2005, Washington Post military and intelligence expert William Arkin revealed that, while the database was theoretically being used to track anyone suspected of terrorism, drug trafficking or espionage, "some military gumshoe or overzealous commander just has to decide someone is a 'threat to the military' " for it to be brought into play. Among the "threatening" citizens actually tracked by CIFA were members of anti-war groups. As part of its role in CIFA, Lockheed Martin was not only monitoring intelligence, but also "estimating future threats". (Not exactly inconvenient for a giant weapons outfit that might see antiwar activism as a threat.)"

The link at the bottom of the OP goes to a post on the Church Committee. The title of the OP asks the rhetorical question..."doesn't anyone care?" The article assumes that 9/11 has been exploited in a way that has made people more docile in the acceptance of greatly expanded covert domestic surveillance. I think that assumption is correct.
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-11 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #75
100. "Docile" is a loaded word.
I think that it is probably the case that the balance of opinion has swung further towards increased domestic surveillance in the last decade, but the two implicit assumptions that people who support it are just being "docile" and people who oppose it have actually thought about it are both highly suspect.
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sarcasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
48. 1/2 of this country is on drugs. Keeping us all dumbed down so there will be no uprising.
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BlueIris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
50. Why care when CorpMedia tells us everything is fine?
(tra la la spies in the white house tra la...)
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whatchamacallit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
55. But what about Al Qaeda in America?
:sarcasm:
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ffootball278 Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #55
56. We are going to destroy ourselves. All they have to do is sit back and watch.
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hay rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
57. Creating a market.
Next to last paragraph from the article:

"Of course, government officials say only real threats are the target of surveillance. Notice that the war party was wrong when it said that "fighting them over there" would mean we won't have to "fight them over here." In fact, fighting over there is what brought the threat here. But now we're told that home-grown "terrorism" is the new big danger. There is much reason for skepticism: The alleged plots exposed by the FBI seem to have been hatched by the FBI's own informants. If the FBI has to furnish a "suspect" with phony explosives before arresting him, what threat was really involved? Such cases should sicken every American. Government agents should not be giving security tests to individuals and arresting them if they fail."

We have our own government engineering the Fort Dix and Sears Tower "terrorist plots" and then using them as a rationale for more domestic spying. Sickening indeed.
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BetsysGhost Donating Member (176 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
58. Octafish
Americans should be very afraid of what the govt. is capable of doing regarding spying.

I will not detail anything because I have been trying for years to get someone to listen and nobody believes me anyway.

Be Afraid though because the Thought Police are here.
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davidthegnome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
59. I think we give a damn
If you're expecting outrage or action from the majority though, don't hold your breath. Even republicans claiming that they desire smaller, more limited government strongly support these actions. Here we see the (federal) power to invade privacy, things that in the past were just the stuff of movies. In comparison to what else the NSA can do though.... and not just the NSA, the DEA, the FBI, even local law enforcement agencies - your assets are up for grabs my friend, everything is. All that is necessary is "evidence" (which can be planted or falsified) that you have gained money or property via the drug trade. No conviction, no proof - a simple strand of "evidence" can cost you your home, your car, your bank account, your identity, anything and everything you own. War on drugs indeed.

Are we docile? Perhaps, more so I would say that we are afraid of the monster we have created and allowed to exist and to thrive. Stand too strongly against the status quo - make waves, make too much noise, and you risk your assets, your identity, your freedom, even your life. Should you be accused of "domestic terrorism" you may even find yourself in an illegal prison facing various methods of torture. We could talk all day about the various rights ignored by the so called Patriot Act. Freedom has long since been sacrificed for the illusion of safety.

I believe in democracy - but I believe that, here at least, it has failed. In other Nations, governments fear their populace - here we fear the government, with damn good reason.

That said - I believe most people choose not to educate themselves in regards to these matters because they do not wish to know. I cannot say I blame them, ignorance can indeed be bliss. Most people (in my opinion) are simply struggling to survive in a difficult world in difficult economic times. Those of us with employment, homes, insurance (not me) may consider themselves fortunate to have what they do given that so many others have so little or nothing. Why should they risk everything until the right time comes? Believe me, any true progressive movement in this Nation is being carefully monitored and would be shut down hard should it grow too strong.

As for me, I have little to lose and so little to fear. I'm game for jumping up and down and screaming at some various government officials, but it won't do any damn good I'm afraid.
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AzDar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
62. K & R
:kick:
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siligut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
63. "Can't beat 'em, join 'em"
Not all Americans don't care, some are making their living off it.
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
64. I care. What do we do?
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
66. K&R + I give a damn because I politically targeted as a HS student active in our political process
I'm 61 now, a much wiser survivor of domestic black ops and I won't be silent in this first decade of someone's new American century.

The Pike Committee was the House version of what Senator Church investigated in that small window of opportunity for real reform of the politicized US intelligence community that was a reaction to the Watergate "scandal".

Even though it was decades ago The Pike Committee merits review today and the reforms called for then are critical in this WikiLeaks world where the only tinfoil is wrapped around subsandwiches-by the way, the final report of The Pike Committee is still unavailable to American citizens.

The Pike Committee (started 3-11-08)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2990965

Everything in this world has become intelligence with a corncopia of "intelligence professionals" that include many contracted private companies-involving mercenaries, religious cults, nutty professors, serial killers, torturers and all the rest of what is contained in the "turn to the dark side" taken by Richard Bruce Cheney during the George Walker Bush response to Bin Laden's "strike".

One result is that the free press necessary for a democracy has been running propaganda 24/7 for quite awhile, it must be highly rewarding to those too big to fail at the expense of all the rest of us aka we, the people.

Rumsfeld's Roadmap to Propaganda
Secret Pentagon "roadmap" calls for "boundaries" between "information operations" abroad and at home but provides no actual limits as long as US doesn't "target" Americans
(The National Security Archive/Electronic Briefing Book 177 posted 1-26-06)

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB177/index.htm

CIA Foreign Broadcast Intelligence Service Transformed Into Open Source Spying (1-3-11 posting of CIA pdf via Cryptome)
http://cryptome.org/nara/cia/cia-04-0106.pdf
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
67. I care very much. Count me in!
The Saudis wont let momen drive and they fostered the men who flew those planes on 9-11.
Somehow, the US government turned that into a war on its free citizens. And Saudi leadership gets a hand-holding stroll through the flower garden.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
68. K & R but what gets me is-if they are spying on ALL of us-why didn't they STOP Loughner?
:yoiks:
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saras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #68
73. Why on earth would they stop Loughner?
He was serving their interests. If he was big enough to pay any attention to, more likely they were working to clear the way so that another 'lone wacko' could do part of their job for them.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. Of course they didn't want to stop Loughner-he did the dirty work for them...
sorry if I wasn't clear about that in my post.
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
69. Yep, this is partly the reason the peace and justice activists
are being raided and subpoenas (as have thousands upon thousands of Muslims since 9/11). Protests being asked for on or about January 25... see here: http://www.stopfbi.net

K&R Octafish!!
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #69
95. As if the peace and justice activists are the problem.
I have yet to meet a peace-loving person who would hurt another person to make a political point or moral statement. So, to make them the problem, they send in the agitators to stir up some violence to put on the tee vee.

Worked during COINTELPRO. The NATO allies employ a Strategy of Tension. Who knows what the USA employs, but remember, our nation now tortures children as official policy.

May we return Justice to this country. Infinite thanks, maryf.
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-11 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #95
101. They are bucking the status quo
and making others aware of how sorry the status quo really is. Those who create and hope to maintain the status quo, aren't happy with these "terrorists". Always a pleasure! (and this gives you another kick!)
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
74. K&R
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
77. When CorpAmerica let Obama be president part of the deal was retain the Patriot Act, MCA, domestic
spying and NO PROSECUTION FOR WAR CRIMINALS.
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Dokkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
78. in 2 -6 yrs when the republican
administration start violating the constitution, the republican would ask what did we do when Obama was doing it? Just like we r doing when the republicans complain about TSA, assassinations etc. This cycle will continue until we can rid ourselves of the 2 party system
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #78
89. Agree ... "This cycle will continue
until we can rid ourselves of the 2 party system" --



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indimuse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
79. I care!
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
81. The Tea Party only appears to be
concerned with the right to bear arms. Just saying.
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steve2470 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
84. k and r nt
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
85. I care.
And I'm glad that you, and others on this thread, do, too.

Recommended.
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lordsummerisle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
86. K&R n/t
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FailureToCommunicate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
87. Fifty years since Eisenhower warned of the dangers of Military Industrial Complex
run amok. Well, a lot of us do care. It's just tough to know what to do most times. (I felt good for awhile after voting November 2 2008!)
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
91. Okay, Octafish, talk about mind reading - how is it that any time
I have an idea on what would make for a compelling read here on DU, you steal the idea right away from me?

Do you know much about that small installation of cameras above my keyboard?

Or the chem trail, HAARP combination happening right above my head?

Better confess soon <if you know what is good for you>!

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MountainLaurel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 08:46 PM
Response to Original message
93. In a related vein
FRONTLINE is doing a show tomorrow on the Top Secret America investigation and the terror industrial complex.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=218831&mesg_id=218831
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
94. So long as it's being done by a Democrat,
why should we worry? :sarcasm:

I think it may be too far gone already. The see saw of the two party system keeps everything balanced in favor of the PTBs.

When Bush was doing it, it was okay with half the country so we couldn't get any unity on the pushback.

Now that Obama is doing it, that same half that was so incensed by Bush, have switched roles with Bush supporters, so still no unity on any kind of action to try to stop these abuses.

They figured it all out, hell, we have figured it out, it isn't rocket science. Keep the country divided and they can do as they please.
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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-11 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
97. kick
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-11 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
98. kicked. missed the timeframe for Reccing. nt
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-11 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
102. ^
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-11 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
103. We crossed the Rubicon in the year 2000 and sadly have never
Edited on Tue Jan-18-11 02:41 PM by Rex
looked back. The nightmare about America becoming a real police state is coming true. Sadly. We've lost rights that just 20 years ago we would ALL be OUTRAGED about and not put up with. Now, after 2 wars and the emergence of a fully functioning police state, we have lost so many rights and the M$M has done such a good job at keeping the outrage down that we might be on the verge of becoming a nation of completely unattached individuals. One that the govt is perpetually hostile to and one that doesn't resent losing rights, because the M$M frowns down on such actions and they believe in keeping the status quo.

We have become slaves to the reality manufactured in Washington D.C. and the M$M, finally. Like they wanted.
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-11 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
104. Kick
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-11 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
107. bttt
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-11 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
108. Error: you can only recommend threads which were started in the past 24 hours
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