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doublethink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-11 11:52 PM
Original message
10,000 + PSU Students hold Candlelight Vigil For Sexual Abuse Victims ..
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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-11 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. k&r
obviously people are coming to terms with the information we've all just learned.
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doublethink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Yes
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-11 11:57 PM
Response to Original message
2. Nice to see they woke up. n/t
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 12:02 AM
Response to Original message
3. K/R --
Wonder if anyone will ever track down the many Sandusky victims?
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FourScore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 12:08 AM
Response to Original message
4. Way to go, kids. This time you got it right! n/t
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Fire Walk With Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. +1000!
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 12:12 AM
Response to Original message
6. too little, too late.
The idiots on campus spoke first, and these guys only got the candlelight idea because Anderson Cooper told them to do it.
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pennylane100 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Your comments are so wrong.
There are thousands of students that attend that school and many of them came together tonight to show that the morons in the earlier demonstrations do not speak for them. I am proud of them.
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BigBearJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 05:39 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. +10,000 These kids stood in opposition to the fools at the school.
Edited on Sat Nov-12-11 05:40 AM by BigBearJohn
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Peregrine Took Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #8
48. He's still entitled to his opinion. 'No "wronger" than you are. n/t
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. I am sad to say that I think you are correct. This smells of a
hastily-arranged PR move to counter the black eye PSU received because of the riots in support of a bunch of pedophiles and pedophile enablers. One can rightly ask where these candle-light vigilers were on the night of the riots. There were 10,000 rioting that night also.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 05:32 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. I agree--I wonder how many of these little geniuses were out at the TV truck trashing event as well?
I'll bet there's a lot of convergence between the two groups.

This smacks of a desperate attempt to try to push back against the "Pedo State" label. I don't see it succeeding. That school is TARNISHED, and they can thank that pervert and the people who covered up for him for that.

They do have a big student body (80 percent in-state), each group was just under ten percent of the total (if you count in the "online" students as well):

Penn States total enrollment is 96,519 students, up 686 students from 2010, according to an annual snapshot count taken at the end of the sixth week of fall semester classes. Most significant is the second consecutive year of 20 percent growth of World Campus students, who are enrolled online exclusively. Penn States 2011 online enrollment includes 10,314 students worldwide pursuing their studies fully online through the World Campus a 21 percent increase over 2010, following on the heels of a 20 percent increase from 2009.

http://gantdaily.com/2011/10/24/penn-state-enrollment-sees-modest-growth-in-2011/
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #14
25. You're a horrible person
I'm speechless.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. And you're Mother Theresa--nice name calling there--proud of yourself?
Why am I a horrible person? Because I doubt the sincerity of that group?

They have a lot to lose, and the losing has just begun.

I think you give them far too much credit. Where were all these people when TV trucks were being smashed up? Why weren't they outside crying for the victims days ago? Why did they only do it after a hasty "demonstration" was ginned up, for a photo op in order to try to mitigate the shame of the previous rioting?

That little candlelight vigil was a pushback against negative publicity, plain and simple.

Too little, far too late.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Pathetic
What's sad is that you can't even see yourself.

You're deplorable.

Alert, I don't care. What you need more than anything right now is for somebody to point at you and tell you that you're acting like a frenzied fucking asshole.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. You apparently need a big old magnifying mirror, yourself. You sling insults and
then get pissed off when you get called on your comments.

You should know all about "deplorable"---that's been your behavior throughout my exchange with you.

Anyone who could call someone who objects to child abuse a "frenzied fucking asshole" has some overwhelming issues, I'd say.

Why should I 'alert?' I think your comments should stand for all to see. They are quite revelatory--and not in a good way for you, either.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Whatever you say, MADem Defarge
Leader of the lynch mob.

Maybe one day one of those fine kids will help you with an illness.

None could cure your character, which is irreparably damaged.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. Who's "lynching" anyone? Way to make this racial, to boot!
Look at your comments--you really are a sight to behold.

I have an opinion about motives with regard to this little "alumni-organized" so-called "student vigil" that differs from yours.

You, apparently, can't handle anyone who isn't carrying a set of pompoms and cheering mindlessly for your team.

Get over yourself. This is the internet, not an echo chamber. Individuals have opinions, and sometimes they'll differ from your all-knowing proclamations about how you assert that people are permitted to think or feel.

I never once demanded that you share my view, yet your response to my perspective is to call me some pretty childish and profane names--and wish "illness" on me on this latest rant of yours.

My, my, my.

Let's have a hard look at "character," throughout our exchange--I think you come up terribly short.
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #14
26. And why would anyone organize this if they believed otherwise?
You are sadly cynical.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. Because PR is all about images, as anyone in the real world knows.
The school did not want the "last image" to be a bunch of drunken little shitheads in their JOEPA tee shirts, tossing a TV van down the lane and screaming/spitting about football while complaining that the "media" was doing a "Sandusky" on them.

They want to pretend they give a shit about those little victims.

We'll see how much of a shit they really give when the school's endowments are raped like those little kids were, to pay off the lawsuits, and the tuition goes up-up-up as a consequence.

I'm not cynical--I'm for real. And when it comes down to taking sides, I side with those little kids, not a bunch of bullshit artists who put football in front of the safety of young children.
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Why not just blame the entire state while you're at it?
And yes. You are cynical. And cruel and mean spirited and cold and judgmental.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Right back atcha--you plainly care more about football than abused kids.
Cynical, cruel, meanspirited, cold and judgmental, yourself, I'd say. You certainly seem to be in touch with those traits--do you always spit out that kind of crap when someone doesn't agree with you? How adult!

I'd rather be on the side of the kids than on the team you're apparently boosting.
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. I am an abused person
Edited on Sat Nov-12-11 07:10 PM by lunatica
I was sexually molested when I was six years old. I can speak for those kids. Can you?


I know exactly who to blame.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Oh please--so now, if you haven't been abused, you're not allowed to
care about kids getting raped?

This is the internet--you could tell me you're Tiger Woods.

And no, you can't speak for all abused kids--least of all the ones who got messed up by Sandusky--any more than I, after a long military career, can speak for all vets.

So don't even go there.

Your comments and claims are not an argument in support of your position--not in the slightest. So don't expect me to pause and shed a tear.

In fact, you of ALL people, if your assertion is indeed factual, should probably look askance at anything that was organized by the students, WITH THE HELP OF THE ALUMNI ASSOCIATION.

But hey, don't look on which side that bread might be buttered. Don't ask yourself "Cui bono?"

Go Lions! Yay Team! JoePa-rah-rah!
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. I rest my case
You really are a sad case when you hate even people who care. I think you were abused too. Your hate isn't going to make it better, but everyone deals in their own way.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 08:23 PM
Original message
I rested mine awhile ago. You just get pissy if someone doesn't agree with you.
Not a terribly progressive OR tolerant trait.

Everyone has a right to their own opinion...so long as it's YOURS, is that your manner of thinking?

I am indeed being abused--right now, by you. You really should grow up and get over yourself. Your view is not the only one in the world. I never demanded that you share my opinion, yet you resort to snark and rudeness only because I don't agree with you.

Go away. The one with the "hate" issue is YOU.
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Bunny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. LOL!
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #43
53. Merci, mille fois!
:hi:
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Bunny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. Ha!
It's even funnier than you think!
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12AngryBorneoWildmen Donating Member (128 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #39
47. I agree with the 'staged PR recovery' theory.
The organizers and maybe half (for argument's sake) of the 10K students could easily be disingenuous, hoping to minimize sanctions and recruiting drop-offs. The other half could feel exactly as we, here, I'll venture to say, unanimously, do, regarding all the sins and the ensuing, moronic, van flipping mass tantrums. I do believe, though, that to a disgusting degree, a great portion of today's college enrollments are infested with little junior nazi kids. It's simply much more difficult for blue collar families to afford the costs. Couple that with scum like the Koch brothers insisting on input regarding the hiring of teachers and administrators, dependent upon their 'donations'. Or vice versa-their donations are dependent upon their free hand to manipulate hiring. I live in Knoxville, TN (home of U of T) and the young punk neofascists make you want to throw up. Go to OccupyTogether/Knoxville and you might see 8 people signed up. Turnout once reached 52. I opened a walkup window Mexican food stand on the main strip with super authentic comida, and the young Republicans all went next door to the Taco Bell and I folded. Lunatica-I think you overreacted. And MADem-I hear ya. And MADem-the comment in your profile sucks. :dilemma:
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #47
52. I agree with your comments about college students.
Back in the day, college was where you went to learn how to be a liberal. Sure, some of those peace/love/rock-n-roll students grew up, got selfish, and went over to the Dark Side, but with some, the lessons stuck.

Now, one of the old time bastions of the Democratic Party back in the day, Boston College, is Republican Central. So are many of the other colleges and universities in Beantown. Only the rich can afford to send their kids to these places, and their attitude is "I got mine, screw you." They teach their children early, apparently. The Kardashian Konsumer Kulture doesn't help much, either, I suspect.

The comment in my profile was written years ago--and it applied at the time. It still does, to no small extent, I'm sorry to say. I routinely get my "bona fides" challenged by the "Obama Sucks" crowd, and I just don't put up with that. I've been supporting the Democratic Party in good times and bad, through success and failure, for longer than a lot of people here have been alive.

You've seen in this very thread an intolerance for any diversity of opinion. If you're not so happy you're leaping through your own butt that a bunch of kids, prompted by a beleaguered alumni association, staged a vigil, you're an enemy to be called a "frenzied fucking asshole." Real classy.

You know, LBJ used to say he liked having people in our (big) Democratic tent pissing OUT, rather than outside pissing in. I'm afraid we suffer a few people who like to piss all over the tent from the inside any time they hear a view that doesn't line up with theirs. I do find that terribly odd in a party that has always prized diversity of views, tolerance, and open, intelligent debate.
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12AngryBorneoWildmen Donating Member (128 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. Re: Profile comment.
Our system of government is not better than any alternative. Much of or problem is 'USA is #1'. That hurts us. I did like and concur with your reply. I decided on SIU Carbondale in 1970 because they had big demonstrations in'69 (all much to the chagrin of Repub Precinct Committee Man Dad who wanted me to attend Duke, from a north suburb of Chicago). You sound similarly aged-did you ever go to Joe's Subs in Somerville circa 1969?
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. I don't necessarily think we're Big Foam Finger Number One
...but I think we have a lot going for us, not least of which is our ability to recognize our faults and change our direction.

I've lived in a lot of these "paradises" from the Far East to Europe to the Middle East/SW Asia, and this place ain't so bad.

Joe's subs sounds familiar, I had more than a few pals who lived in what we used to call "Slummerville" (it's a bit more gentrified these days) back in the day--my brain cells aren't what they used to be; probably owing to too much time at the Plough and Stars over in Cambridge in my misspent youth...
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #13
24. Your cynicism is duly noted
It's sad.
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Peregrine Took Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #13
49. +10000000. They realized the reputation of their diploma is at stake. n/t
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #6
23. Your comment is really sad
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spicegal Donating Member (617 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #6
60. Please stop, really. These are young college kids, who had just been told that a man they revere,
just learned that a father figure, a man deeply revered, had just been fired and implicated in an unspeakable crime. I don't think any of them had a clue as to the full extent of Sardonsky's crimes, let alone Paterno's involvement in the matter. Plus, knowing how the media loves to sensationalize, it would be wrong to interpret the actions of a few as representative of the entire student body.
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spicegal Donating Member (617 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #6
63. You sound like a right winger rushing to judgement.
This horrific story only broke this past week. Judging an entire school and it's student body by bad behavior perpetrated by a few is no different than the right wing and right wing media attempting to demonize the entire OWS movement based on the bad behavior of only a few. It may be even worse in this case since these young people had little time to process what had just turned their world upside down.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
7. finally. I hope it comforts the victims and their families some of
who are students here.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 01:29 AM
Response to Original message
10. That's more like it--thanks to all. n/t
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demmiblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 01:32 AM
Response to Original message
11. Good on them! N/t
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Hardrada Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 02:19 AM
Response to Original message
12. This is the right response.
Wordless sorrow & wordless compassion.
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 05:57 AM
Response to Original message
16. We'll see if it carries through tomorrow...
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doublethink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. See if the humility sticks ...
One can only hope. Peace.
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #18
29. You're doubting their sincerity?
Wow. Just wow.
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Scuba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 06:59 AM
Response to Original message
17. No doubt appalled by their classmates. n/t
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Gemini Cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
19. I think this is great.
Thanks students, you care.
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
20. There are obviously...
...Penn State students who are just as appalled as all of us. After all, this is
*their* school--and I'm sure, in addition to their outrage and sadness--they feel
personally betrayed. This is the college that they chose to attend, when I'm sure
they had other options.

These people are decent and caring--and in my opinion they deserve some credit for
standing for the victims of sexual abuse--and in effect,shaming the Penn State
administrators and coaches who were involved.

This whole thing is such a horrendous tragedy.
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #20
28. +1
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ejbr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #20
42. +1 n/t
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joanbarnes Donating Member (204 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
21. Reporting the crime to authorities might do more than a vigil...just saying
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. So these people are now responsible for not reporting the crime?
What's the matter with you? Ugh!
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #21
30. The crime has been reported to the authorities -
what additional crime do you think needs to be reported? Just saying.
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
22. kick'd and rec'd
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
31. And I'll bet these kids didn't flip any vans either. nt
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Lifelong Protester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
44. thanks for the photos and I think this is a good start
Frankly, I'm sure a lot of these kids were not in the streets with the 'pro-Paterno' crowd, which acted out of impulse. I'm hopeful that these kids thought it through, and as the story developed had a collective OMG moment, and came together to do this.
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dballance Donating Member (460 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
46. We should not demonize all of Penn State
Good for these people - even if Anderson Cooper gave them the idea. 10,000 people showing up to show remorse for the victims of abuse is more than a PR stunt. There are certainly people there who are sincerely sorry about what happened even though they had nothing to do with it.

Demonize those in power because they only cared about keeping their power and not at all about those young boys. This is not limited to football programs. It pervades our society now. Men and women do anything to keep their riches and positions of power. It disgusts me.
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
50. While a nice photo op, and perhaps even well-intentioned
if these people REALLY want to do something important, they need to stop praying and lighting candles. They need to keep their voices raised and NEVER stop until every person involved has been held fully responsible and until ALL of the facts have been made public, no matter how dark a shadow that brings on Penn State. And if that means that Joe Paterno dies a shamed and broken man, so be it. No number of won football games or noble young men born of his tutelage can equal one raped little boy.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. +1. nt
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Moonwalk Donating Member (437 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
51. I think we have to keep in mind that these students didn't know and weren't likely to know--
--what had gone on or what was going on. Most of them went about their daily lives, to class, to football games. I mean, really, when you were going to high school or college and cheering on your football team, did you now what the coaches of that team or had been up to or has seen or failed to report? And if you had known something like this, what would you have done? What could you have done?

It's one thing to blame the college or the board or anyone else involved. It's quite another to blame the students going to the college. I feel bad that they felt responsible and ashamed, as if they, themselves, saw and knew about the abuse but didn't report it. On the one hand, they should not be ashamed of their school--it wasn't the whole school or them that is to blame (what, after all, did the science or English department have to do with this? The librarians weren't in on it. Nor the cafeteria). On the other hand, these students should not use such a vigil as a band-aid, but, rather as a stepping stone. As a way of getting started. They need to go on from here to demanding that anyone who knew about it but didn't report it, or who was complicit in covering it up, be held accountable. They didn't bring down the school, but they can raise it back up.

This vigil is a first step; it lets the victims know they are seen, heard, and felt for--that is important. But it shouldn't be all the students do. To sum up, IMHO, I don't see any reason to hold the students accountable or make them feel ashamed of what happened. Nor do I think the vigil wrong, or too little, or anything like that--it's the best they can manage at the moment, a way of expressing what they think and feel to each other and to the world. What they do next, what they demand next--that is where they will prove their meddle. This is the first step--if it is also the only or last step, then we can judge them.
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #51
57. No one, and I mean no one
has ever claimed that these students knew or should have known that Sandusky was raping little boys, so I'm not sure why you need to demolish that straw man. But their non-responsibility also means that they can't apologize or make up for what was done by someone else. What really matters is what they do or fail to do in the future.
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melissaf Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #57
62. Yeah, well
you gotta start somewhere. Dumping on a candlelight vigil because it's "not enough" isn't really useful. Is a candlelight vigil ever "enough"? In any situation?
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. No, it never is
But in some cases, it can help call attention to an issue. Did the students in this case really need to call attention to the fact that they are opposed to child rape and deplore those who commit or abet it?
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spicegal Donating Member (617 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
58. I totally knew these students would do the right thing,
once they gained a better understanding of the situation. My nephew is a freshman at Penn State, and this has been devastating for the students. Wish the media would cut them some slack on the initial protests. In many ways, they are also victims, obviously not nearly to the same extent as those who were sexually assaulted. I'm quite sure that none of them knew the full story or the extent of the criminal behavior perpetrated by the assistant coach. I read the grand jury report this evening about what happened to victims 1-8. It literally sickened me. These students, just like Sardonsky's victims, need our support, not condemnation.
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Bethany Rockafella Donating Member (916 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
61. Looks like they woke the fuck up
This outcome is much better. Unfortunately that other night will not be forgotten. Being young and overreactive is what will help them.
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